Shipping used engine abroad

[jonryan]

Anyone know the rules on this? I sold an old engine to a bloke in Norway via Ebay's Global Shipping Programme, and it went through with no problem. Then he bought another, and this time Ebay classed it as 'dangerous', and refused to ship it. (They also refused to return it to me at first, though I got it back after a helluva fight).

Obviously new engines are shipped all over the planet without problem, but what are the restrictions on used? The one I nearly lost was 50 years old, had no tank, and just a touch of light oil for lubrication. You couldn't have set it on fire with a flame thrower.

[Gordon Tarling]

The obvious answer is not to use their Global Shipping program - it's slow and painful. Better to use Royal Mail or one of the courier companies.

[jonryan]

I don't use GSP for engines now. I'm trying to find out if there are indeed rules against sending used engines abroad as I don't want to risk losing another one!

[Jonathan W]

I have not sent any engines, but have recieved a few from USA.

I received a couple of new old stock engines via the ebay GSP. As stated above, it is painfully slow. On the plus side, you can see detailed tracking and they both did arrive eventually. The first one was effectively free, because it was days late and ebay refunded me in full, only for it to arrive shortly afterwards!

Other engines (mainly used) have arrived without problem sent by USPS and handled in this country by Royal Mail. Sometimes there is duty to pay, but it's 50/50 depending what value the seller puts on the customs label.

I have also received a smaller number of engines (new and used) posted from within EU, with no problems and of course no customs charges.

Based on this experience, I'm not sure why a used engine lightly oiled would be classed as dangerous. Maybe it's worth checking with Royal Mail.

[avtur]

This may sound daft but could it be because there is a suspicion that it may contain fuel? We know full well that it doesn't but perhaps there is a (completely unwarranted) concern that it does; which may differentiate it from a new engine in some peoples eyes.

As part of may day job I used to have to send samples of aviation fuel around the UK and to the UK from places around the world, as soon as there is the mention of fuel there are (understandably) all manner of rules and regs that kick in.

Just a thought

(newly formed clutching at straws dept - mid Sussex branch)

Edited By avtur on 10/09/2018 14:50:02

[Denis Watkins]

Posted by jonryan on 10/09/2018 12:19:15:

Anyone know the rules on this? I sold an old engine to a bloke in Norway via Ebay's Global Shipping Programme, and it went through with no problem. Then he bought another, and this time Ebay classed it as 'dangerous', and refused to ship it. (They also refused to return it to me at first, though I got it back after a helluva fight).

Obviously new engines are shipped all over the planet without problem, but what are the restrictions on used? The one I nearly lost was 50 years old, had no tank, and just a touch of light oil for lubrication. You couldn't have set it on fire with a flame thrower.

While on eBay, you describe the motor as normal, say I/C Petrol or Glow, and the informed buyer will know what they are buying.

But on the shipping declaration, do not write Petrol, Nitromethane, or Combustion !

There is no need at the shipping stage to alert the shipper to " Petrol "

As the description then includes one word that classes your shipment as " dangerous "

Just describe it as a " worn mechanism "

If you are shipping dangerous goods, then extra payment gets those through

Edited By Denis Watkins on 10/09/2018 15:09:49

[Nigel R]

I've sent a few via the ebay shipping thingummy, all went smoothly apart from one which went somewhere never to be seen again.

The big plus with GSP is that you only have to pay for it to get to an address in the UK and then you're covered. So in my case I got refunded, and so did the buyer.

I always wrote "toy parts" on any sort of declarations - nothing to see here, move along now.

Also make sure it is well wrapped and as close to hermetically sealed as you can get - cling film etc.

 

Edited By Nigel R on 10/09/2018 17:40:14

[brokenenglish]

I've been sending and receiving engines to/from around the world for 45 years, including eBay over the last 16 years.

There is absolutely no problem at all with shipping engines.

The problem is the Pitney Bowes Global Shipping Swindle, that is creating artificial problems to justify its existence (and charges!). Pitney Bowes have understood that everyone is safety crazy, and that if they invent an artificial safety issue, they'll probably get away with it...

SO DON'T USE THE EBAY GLOBAL SHIPPING SWINDLE AND THERE IS NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER !!!

Just send engines normally, by registered post. I've never lost an engine in 45 years. I haven't kept count, but I must be talking about several hundred engines.

For international sales, specify payment by PayPal, which will give you all the security you need.

Edited By brokenenglish on 10/09/2018 18:08:10

[Dave Hess]

That's interesting. Does the Ebay shipping pick up the description from the listing title or do you get a chance to add your own description? What engine was it exactly, and what was the Ebay listing title?

[brokenenglish]

No, No, No, Dave ! It's not a case of "interesting"!

Don't use eBay shipping for engines, that's all.

Engine collectors around the world have had all sorts of problems because Pitney Bowes, who operate this scam, frequently confiscate rare old engines just because some anonymous idiot decrees that your 60-year old Mills 75 may have oil residue in the crankcase, and represents a danger!!! And all that with no authority whatsoever to do so, except that the sender, conned by the eBay default options, asked them to handle the shipping!

In fact, eBay are using a finance company, that has nothing to do with postal or shipping services, to operate a postal/shipping service and, to justify this, they are inventing non-existent safety issues that are presented as an "added value" in their "service"!

Unfortunately, it fools a few of the "uneducated" (not us!), who don't feel able to write an overseas address on a parcel...

Edited By brokenenglish on 12/09/2018 07:33:49

[Denis Watkins]

Sorry lads, but shipping and air mail involves high security scanners, which are becoming ever increasingly clever.

They have to be.

Air sampling is completed too, and combustible sources highlighted.

You need to scrub those motors clean for shipping, and tell the buyer why there is no oil in the motor

[brokenenglish]

Denis, what you say may be theoretically true but, in practical terms it just has no impact (IMO). I've been collecting engines for well over 50 years. I've been sending and receiving engines all that time, by registered normal mail (the equivalent of the GPO - Royal Mail in the UK). This includes at least 20 engines over the last couple of years, and there is never a problem!

Think about it! This question/problem only exists because of the eBay/Pitney Bowes swindle. Without this scam, no-one would ever question the acceptability of sending an old model engine through the post! It's been happening since engines exist (80 years) and I don't think there's ever been any problem, anywhere. So what are we "preventing"?

Your suggestion of scrubbing motors clean for shipping is ridiculous. No collector, or anyone else, would ever do such a thing!
Not to mention the fact that all new engines are shipped by the manufacturers containing oil!

Here's the last engine I purchased, about one month ago on eBay. It was sold as "gummed up and needing a good clean"...
AND THERE IS NEVER, NEVER, ANY PROBLEM!
So please just stay away from the eBay shipping nonsense and stop inventing non-existent problems.

Edited By brokenenglish on 12/09/2018 11:38:51

Edited By brokenenglish on 12/09/2018 11:40:26

Edited By brokenenglish on 12/09/2018 11:56:52

[Piers Bowlan]

ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organisation) harmonises national legislation governing the carriage of Dangerous Goods. IC engines are classified as 'Dangerous goods' if they contain fuel or have contained fuel previously, in which case they cannot be carried by air. New un-run engines are unaffected by the legislation.

Best mark the package containing your old Mills engine as 'toy parts' , although you would be in breach of the regulations.

 

 

 

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 12/09/2018 17:52:36

[brokenenglish]

Piers, I disagree. I think you're confusing ICAO regulations and postal regulations.

PAW (and other manufacturers, I'm sure) test run every engine before shipping it out. The engines are subsequently shipped by air. How do you explain that?

PS: I wonder how the Formula 1 teams get their cars and engines to the other side of the world...

[jonryan]

Thanks for the info, good people. I've only even had problems sending engines via GSP, so won't use it for that again. But for other stuff it's excellent for sellers. My biggest gripe is the way they confiscate items they deem 'dangerous'. They won't even say what they do with confiscated goods. I had to threaten them with legal action to get back a nice Frog 2.49.

[Piers Bowlan]

Posted by brokenenglish on 12/09/2018 18:33:26:

Piers, I disagree. I think you're confusing ICAO regulations and postal regulations.

PAW (and other manufacturers, I'm sure) test run every engine before shipping it out. The engines are subsequently shipped by air. How do you explain that?

PS: I wonder how the Formula 1 teams get their cars and engines to the other side of the world...

Commercial shipment of an IC engine, whether it is a F1 engine or RR RB211 turbofan (or even a PAW diesel) will be classified as dangerous or hazardous goods (depending on which country you are shipping from). Commercial shipments have to meet complex shipping requirements concerning packageing, labeling and restrictions on how many units are shipped in each consignment etc. My understanding (which admittedly may be wrong) is that private individuals putting engines in the post that have contained fuel and oil, are shipping dangerous goods without complying with the the necessary regulations (but I won't be losing sleep over it!). Perhaps someone who has a detailed knowledge of the subject can clarify things.

[brokenenglish]

Piers, I don't feel that I need "detailed knowledge" or "clarification" on something that's been working perfectly well for more than 50 years and is still working well today.

All this is nit-picking theory. The only real problem that has ever occurred is entirely due to eBay and Pitney Bowes wanting to rip off unsuspecting buyers/sellers.

[PatMc]

Posted by brokenenglish on 12/09/2018 21:45:04:

Piers, I don't feel that I need "detailed knowledge" or "clarification" on something that's been working perfectly well for more than 50 years and is still working well today.

The regulations habven't been in place for 50 years.

[Piers Bowlan]

The OP asked the question, 'Anyone know the rules on this?' so I don't feel that this is nitpicking theory, just my attempt to make sense of the rules. Also, I believe the regulations changed concerning the carriage of IC engines in aircraft in 2012, so you are right, it hasn't been a problem until relatively recently. I believe the ICAO regs also changed regarding the carriage of Lithium batteries in aircraft around this time.

I haven't heard of Pitney Bowes and I don't export things via ebay so I can't comment.

[Piers Bowlan]

I think this may clarify things a bit (even though you don't need clarification brokenenglish  !). The date is 8/3/2011 so clearly the original regs. predate that.

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 13/09/2018 07:09:34

[brokenenglish]

The reason I call this "nit-picking theory" is that no-one, to my knowledge, either on this thread or elsewhere, has ever had a problem sending model engines by post, and that includes the last few years, and right now.

This implies that the "regulations" mentioned are not being applied in the way that they are being interpreted here.

What can, and does, happen is that occasionally a parcel is opened, and the customs person sees that the contents are clearly inoffensive and not dangerous in any way. Which raises the question, who is supposed to be actually applying these "regulations", and what real actions are involved?

To return to the OP, the question was "is there a problem sending engines by post", and (I think) not one person here is aware of there ever being any real problem.

I haven't time to read the "regulations" but clearly, if you gentlemen are correct, there is a difference between your interpretation of the "regulations" and the "real world" situation.

[Nigel R]

brokenenglish, the reality of the regulations is here:

http://www.ubak.gov.tr/BLSM_WIYS/TMKDG/tr/doc/20170130_112447_64574_1_64.pdf

They are large. Of course. 1000+ pages. Only some apply to engines as we are talking about here.

See page 3-2-87 for provisions applying to 'flammable liquid fuelled engines' - A67 A70 A87 A134

A67 relates to batteries, presumably on the basis that ignition circuits may use them.

A70 is talking about flushing of fuel (note, not oil) and sealing fuel lines. And also some irrelevant stuff about gasses.

A87 talks about being packed and identified correctly. I haven't dug into what correct packing and identification is.

A134 talks about vehicles in their entirety, so not relevant.

 

You call whether to investigate, ignore, or abide. But there they are. And international carriers will be at the very least, sampling packages to check adherence.

 

As an aside, the same regulations are why lipos are now very clearly marked as such and always no more than 30% charged when transported.

 

 

edit: I do not think these regulations are yet law, but they are certainly well on there way to becoming so if not already.

Edited By Nigel R on 13/09/2018 09:42:53

[David Davis]

I do not consider myself to be an engine collector though I have many more engines awaiting an airframe than I have models with engines in them!

I have recently begun to appreciate the quality of Enya engines and have bought or been given several.I fitted an Enya 50 to a Seagull Boomerang trainer and grew to admire its power, ease of use and reliability. Such a pity that I failed to regain control quickly enough when my pupil became disorientated!

However, I have recently won two Enyas on eBay, a 29 and a 35. The 29 was delivered today to my home in central France, having been posted in England on 11th September via Royal Mail. The 35 was posted through eBay's Global Shipping Centre on 12th September apparently without any problems. I will let you all know when it arrives.

The 29 turns out to be a ball-raced Model 5224 so I'm hoping for a lively performance from it. I'm not sure what I am going to put it in but there is a special prize in La Coupe Des Barons for any Baron built to the 1970s plan fitted with a 1970s engine.

[Nigel R]

DD, Enya really had excellent production quality. I would love to have a few of their four strokes in particular.

[David Davis]

Posted by Nigel R on 15/09/2018 13:34:04:
DD, Enya really had excellent production quality. I would love to have a few of their four strokes in particular.

I had a 120 FS in a WOT 4 XL. Not outrageously powerful but did the job. I am currently in the process of fitting an old Laser 150 V twin into the model. I now seem to have quite a collection of Enyas; a brand new 15, a 19, the 29 and 35 referred to above, a 45, the 50 and the 120 FS.