which is cheaper,IC or ELECTRIC?

[The Wright Stuff]

Chaps,

Every time someone has tried to discuss costs, it's been largely ignored. I think it ought to be possible to come up with something more conclusive than 'about the same' but it clearly needs either a better definition of the cost, or an answer specific to a particular case study.

In general, there are three types of costs:

1. Set up costs are general to any number of models, and include chargers, LiPo boxes, AC-DC adaptors etc. versus fuel pumps, glow plug batteries, starter etc. This is the stuff you only have to buy once.
2. Then there are the 'per model' installation costs. That is ESCs, motors, connectors, versus engines, fuel tanks, separate Rx batteries, and plumbing. This is the stuff you only have to buy once for each model you fly.
3. Finally, there are consumable costs: fuel (and costs of shipping fuel, or driving to get it), charging costs, and batteries (yes, given the previous comments on longevity, I would classify them as consumables).

So it ought to be possible to do a ball-park comparison for a number of specific circumstances. For example, a 40 sized IC powerplant versus a 2200 mAh 3S set up:

I'm going to stick to my guns, here. I suggest that electric will be cheaper for most club level models. Sure, at the larger end, there will be cases when I.C. becomes more economical, but I think that's in the realm of petrol (not glow) and >6S LiPo packs. Given the context of the O.P. I would imagine that suggesting that 'for most club models' electric works out cheaper is more accurate than simply stating 'about the same'.

OK, so mug me! But if you quibble with my figures, please at least provide some of your own.

I fly both I.C. and electric, so consider myself unbiased!

TWS

[The Wright Stuff]

I should have said, the costs came from Google and are for NEW items, of 'middle of the road' quality. I'm more than happy to re-work the numbers with new figures if I got anything wrong!

Surely a healthy discussion based on actual numbers is a constructive way to answer the question in as much as it can be answered!

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Bob Cotsford]

I'd have said from my own experience that your costs are based on a 40-60 sized glow setup v a 3S electric which is more like a 20-30 ic. For electric you are also likely to want a model box to carry around your wattmeter and spare props. Oops - you also need to factor in the cost of a wattmeter, also current sensors (only my smaller electrics are not equipped with one) and voltage sensors.

The simple fact is that I don't think you can make a simple cost comparison as it all depends on what you consider essential equipment and whether you buy brand name or HK priced gear. For example, swap your costs for OS, Axi or Hacker 6S electric setups using Optipower batteries and suddenly your costings show a massive swing in favour of IC!  I have a Hacker X40 SB-Pro in my spares box, a few minutes ago I searched for it's BEC spec and noticed that the esc is priced at over £70

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 04/12/2018 13:49:07

[The Wright Stuff]

Thanks Bob. Point taken about relative sizes. I'm thinking along the lines of a 50" sports model, but I would say a low end 40 would be equivalent to a high C 3S supply, but happy to accept it could also be 4S territory.

Of course, there are 'nice to haves' for both I.C. and electric. To balance your post, there are on-board glows, 4-strokes, 20% nitro, rev counters, noise meters, tuned exhausts and all sorts. But in this one example, I was thinking about the minimum required to get a new model into the air...

Agree with Percy about >50 flights. I just used Jon's comments from page 3 of this thread to arrive at a 'worst case' scenario...If you get more than 50 flights, electric becomes even cheaper!!!

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Would you not have the £25 model box if you flew lecky, or you carry stuff in your pockets, also 12v battery ? well charge your lipos at home, yep and flick start your I.C engine, no starter or 12v battery, fuel pump less than £10, no soldering iron in there, nor flux/solder either, nor a watt meter, connectors £3, you're having a larf.

Unless you only have the one lipo, you need extra leads, maybe a 12v battery 12v transformer etc etc etc.

How longs a piece of string ?

[Gordon Whitehead 1]

Posted by Percy Verance on 04/12/2018 13:43:04:

A lipo lasting just 50 flights? Jeez, that would be about two weeks for me if the weather was good. I'm still happily using lipos I bought 2 or 3 years ago.......

That would be at least 25 hours, ie one day charging per week per lipo.

What make, size and C-rating are your lipos Percy?

I find that these days lipos puff depressingly early in their lives, making me wonder just what the life of a lipo is in terms of number of safe charges (ie charges that won't blow 'em up) before I need to worry about the extent of puffing. I have six well-puffed Zippy Compact 5S 5000 25C lipos that are just 2 years old. Each has 17 logged charges. The lipos are always stored at storage charge, and I know how many flights I've had from a lipo because I mark each full re-charge from storage on a stick-on label. Each label has the date of purchase and price, too. Discharge is never more than 50A, ie 2C according to the 5C claim. I always charge at 1C too. My Giles IR meter tells me the actual C-ratings are 18, so discharge is still not too excessive at 2.8C.

That's £240 spent on lipos so far for 102 flights between 2 models. And the lipos are puffed about 3mm per side. Luckily the models I fly them in can accommodate the swelling easily, The motor is a Hacker A50-14S (£130), and esc Hacker X70 SB pro (£89)

I don't mind spending the money for good quality hardware (eg the Hacker stuff) as it lasts for many years when operated within specs. I have Actro, Kontronik and Schulze escs that are over 15 years old for instance from when I was really heavy into electric flight. But I am wary of spending big bucks on "quality" lipos when I've had Thunderpower lipos puff when far too young.

Basically I don't care which is cheaper; electric or i/c or turbine It's a lifestyle thing really and you just have to spend within your means. I have to wonder if the twice as expensive Overlander 5S 5000 35C lipos would better survive what I think is a very benign operating environment in my models. I'm still using the puffed Zippy's, and whilst flight performance is still all I want, I'm not happy with their puffed state. I think I will try the Overlanders next.

Regards

Gordon

 

Edited By Gordon Whitehead 1 on 04/12/2018 15:25:45

[Geoff S]

Basically I don't care which is cheaper; electric or i/c or turbine It's a lifestyle thing really and you just have to spend within your means.

The first sentence in your ultimate paragraph says it all, Gordon, as far as I'm concerned. Electric mostly suits me, especially at this time of year when I can take a model and few batteries for a quick fix, but others may well prefer glow. Fortunately I'm not on a very tight budget and aeromodelling is what keeps me amused in my dotage

Though I like to indulge in a little mutual teasing re energy source or radio choice that's all it is.

Geoff

[nigel newby]

If you are talking about getting a model flying without the add on bits then you can take off the fuel pump, and use an old fairy liquid bottle. A starter, humph humbug. Whats wrong with a good old fashioned finger. No plumbing either. I fact all that is needed is a U2 battery and a bit of selotape to hold the wires on and a cheapo glowplug clip. Total cost about £3.60 Second hand Irvine 40 engine from e bay between £24 - £40 battery £7.50 Total costs could be from £50 upwards.

It all depends how cheap you want to go.

Nigel N

[The Wright Stuff]

Chaps, I don't doubt that if you choose the cheapest possible I.C. route with sellotape and and second hand parts, you can arrive at the conclusion that electric is not cheaper. That seems to be the aim amongst you here.

You could equally well use second hand electric motors from crashed ARTFs. A £3 ebay LiPo charger.

Come on. Compare apples with apples!

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Why not just enjoy eating the apple, or a pear if you prefer them.

[Gordon Whitehead 1]

Posted by Tim Kearsley on 30/11/2018 19:54:26:

There must be an argument for the moderators closing a thread when it descends into such drivel and which has no relevance to the title.

Tim.

bump

[Nigel R]

"I'm more than happy to re-work the numbers with new figures if I got anything wrong!"

For what it's worth. I did this exercise a while ago.

On 25 size glow. I came up with about 30p a flight, after 600 flights. No "field kit" in there, just a 25 glow on a 4oz tank, and model related bits. And in reality I won't fly that tank dry every time neither, so probably less.

For a comparable 4S2200 or 3S3000 type powertrain, I figured about 22p. Assuming a lifespan of 100 cycles per lipo, and a stack of 6 lipos to get through one session without charging.

30p a go, or 22p, I'm failing to care very much, it costs me more to drive to the site. The airframe costs as much as the electrons or the methanol for those 600 flights. Cost ratios were similar at 40 class, and 60 class. Funny, that.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by SONNY MONKS on 27/11/2018 18:48:53:

I have asked this question at my local model shop in Leeds,and they tell me it works out the same,i am starting to favour electric,especially in the winter months,im finding IC a bit of a drag,wiping the model down afterwards,i suppose some will agree/disagree,each to the own!

Just when the topic gets back on track there are calls for it to be closed?

It's difficult to answer this question because there are so many variables and viewpoints are usually a little skewed depending on the preferences of posters. At the end of the day, cost matters little as the satisfaction gained from the hobby is extremely subjective - some love operating engines,others simply want to get a model in the air by the simplest method. Neither is wrong and all model flying is a lifestyle choice and not a necessity (although I'm sure many of us don't see it that way!)

What I think can be said is that both IC and electric models at the mid range don't differ wildly in cost. I'm sure either "camp" could produce figures to support their case but the over-riding argument is personal choice. I'm a dyed in the wool IC enthusiast but today, I only took electric models to the field. They suited me better for a fairly short afternoon although the majority of members there were flying IC. I can honestly say that at no time did cost enter into my model choice for the day.

[Mark Howard 1]

Posted by Gordon Whitehead 1 on 04/12/2018 16:25:31:

Posted by Tim Kearsley on 30/11/2018 19:54:26:

There must be an argument for the moderators closing a thread when it descends into such drivel and which has no relevance to the title.

Tim.

bump

Why? If people are contributing to the debate, enjoying it and not being rude, why close it? Anyone not wishing to participate just needs to ignore the thread.

Back on topic; frankly I think the original cost question is largely irrelevant. People fly whichever they prefer or what is dictated by the areas they fly in. Cost is not really a factor in these decisions.

[cymaz]

If our site had to go electric flying....then I would be a champion for electric. I have the best of both worlds...and love it.

[Don Fry]

Can you spend £140 on a 40? And a 30 quid starter? Mind always plenty of puffy 4s lipos to power said starter. Why a 12v battery, what's it used for?

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I'm struggling to think of any - an OS 55 AX would be around that mark...starter price seems realistic though.

[Phil 9]

small used glow engines sell for reasonable low prices. I use both but have noted that buying used glow can be the frugal option. Also when you done with it you can sell it for about the same price you bought it for. selling used electric motors and batteries is more difficult

f:0">http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Os-Max-La-40-Model-Aircraft-Engine/283285420901?hash=item41f5207b65:g:aKUAAOSwrZBcApn4:rk:1f:0

£25 delivered for an OS 40?

Edited By Phil 9 on 04/12/2018 19:25:32

[Nigel R]

FP40 are usually around 30. And always a few being sold. Easy to sell on as you say.

[The Wright Stuff]

To be fair, I made it clear that my numbers were based on new and not second hand.

Totally agree with the sentiment that any difference in cost is largely irrelevant in terms of choice. I fly both. Cost does not influence my behaviour at all.

However, the O.P. posed a question, and I see no harm in exploring the answer, even if it is somewhat academic.

[Dave Hess]

I'm just finishing my latest plane, a Hots 40, which is slightly reduced in size from the original because I'm making it from foam-board to get the weight less than 1kg. I bought the 3536 motor from Banggood for £9 and the propellers were 4 for £2 from HK. I measured the thrust at 1.5kg. The ESC cost £13.64 from HK and the 4S battery was £13.02, so around £36 gets me something like 300-400 flights.

You have to balance that against the cost of an IC engine, engine mount, tank, throttle linkage, servo and fuel for the same number of flights. For a plane that size, the used IC engine doesn't come close. It's only when you have much bigger planes that the IC engines can be justified on the basis of economics.

Electric also gives you the opportunity to fly smaller planes, which don't work so well with IC engines.

[nigel newby]

So I guess from all that has been debated. Electric is cheaper. So now do we have to look at pros and cons. I.E. when the battery or batteries are finished then no more flying, but with IC just add more fuel. I have never run down my TX/RX batteries, and have never run out of fuel. Even if you do, you could more than likely scrounge some elsewhere.

Nigel

[John Stainforth]

Electrics can be quite expensive. I saw a drone plus camera at the field today that cost 85,000 pounds!

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]