Former Member Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Posted by supertigrefan on 25/01/2019 17:21:36: Posted by john stones 1 on 25/01/2019 16:50:33: Bomber aircraft, killed many civilians the world over, what's your thoughts on replicating those ? Opens up lots of avenues discussions like these, not complaining, just asking. I think David nailed it with his statement that it's a symbol inextricably linked to one man in particular. I don't follow you ? I asked about modeling bombers, the Stuka for one has a powerful effect on T.V. and not all bombers where German. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Perhaps the continuing discussion highlights why displaying emblems such as the Swastika has many merits. The merits are, that it encourages debate, rather than shutting debate down. When you are not allowed to question, the most outrageous claims can and are made. Discussion probably does not resolve issues in black and white terms, although a better understanding can develop. A similar moral issue is should we model war planes or stick to civilian aircraft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 I never implied they where a symbol of any kind, other than what they're used for, seems a fair enough question in the context of this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Posted by Erfolg on 25/01/2019 18:17:57: Perhaps the continuing discussion highlights why displaying emblems such as the Swastika has many merits. The merits are, that it encourages debate, rather than shutting debate down. When you are not allowed to question, the most outrageous claims can and are made. Discussion probably does not resolve issues in black and white terms, although a better understanding can develop. A similar moral issue is should we model war planes or stick to civilian aircraft? Yep, I agree, not trying to shut anything down, just interested how people see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 All acts of violence, have moral aspects. On persons freedom fighter is anothers terrorist. Consider the impact of the "twin towers", changed the USA Goverments support of some groups within the USA and nearer to us. Area bombing as practiced today and in the past. Attacks on infrastructure that resulted in the deaths of many civilians. Some say that some of these acts are war crimes, acts of terrorism. Yet you will find many other opinions, some of some repute who say otherwise. As my mum has said, some will defend the idefensible if they are showered with honours. Todays terrorist is tomorrows respectable politician and statesman. It is a debate without end, nor necessarily clear moral outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 "Todays terrorist is tomorrows respectable politician and statesman." If on the winning side Erfolg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Posted by supertigrefan on 25/01/2019 17:21:36: Posted by john stones 1 on 25/01/2019 16:50:33: Bomber aircraft, killed many civilians the world over, what's your thoughts on replicating those ? Opens up lots of avenues discussions like these, not complaining, just asking. I think David nailed it with his statement that it's a symbol inextricably linked to one man in particular. Did you? I love Monty Python. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Don To true. Although is that not the essence of history? I know and many others, no some contentious aspects of history, where the loosing side (by a slime margin) have some how managed to write history with a distorted slant. History is never ever straight forward. There are others where whole sections of histories participants are ommited for many reasons, often political correctness. The blame landing on the one party. Perhaps the biggest problem for all, is that we see history through the lense of the norms of today and its values. The realities of yesterday. particularly of war, should not be judged lightly by todays standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Posted by Tom Sharp 2 on 25/01/2019 23:44:26: In the first World War, Germany made a valiant effort to push back the surrounding countries which were operating an effective blockade on German trade. When the war ended in stalemate, Germans looked upon the result as a draw, just a setback with a second half to come later. I am surprised at your comments. The Kaiser, a cousin of Geroge V don't forget, had decided he wanted a Navy to rival the RN. There was an arms race going on between Germany and the UK with the battleship being the primary weapon that was being developed. I don't believe that history records a blockade on Germany before WW1. Germany didn't start WW1 either, it was their, or rather the Kaiser's, decision to support Austria against Servia (as it was called in those days). By the time the full impact of this decision had been grasped, Russia had weighed in against Austria and the Russian/French agreements pulled France into the war as well followed by the UK. I think WW! was one of those avoidable wars that started because of a lack of involvement of the professional diplomats. The Kaiser ruled as a King of old and took little notice of the politicians and professional civil servants serving him. At least, that'w what history records. I don't think the war ended in stalemate. The German Army was defeated and the principal cause at that stage of the war was that the British Army was now the most powerful in the field. The US had only fought one battle under British Command in July 1918, before a full US Army took the field in September 1918. Much against the popular view that it was the US that won WW1 for the Europeans, it was the threat of a US build up in 1919 that persuaded the German High command that they should sue for peace and passed the buck to the politicians. Thus was born the legend of the "Stab in the Back" by the filthy politicians! Interestingly, some of the US Commanders wanted to continue the war until they had reached Germany to prove the the German people that their Army had been defeated. It is interesting that on the morning of 11th November, the US launched a major offensive that cost the lives of around 20,000 US Troops in order to demonstrate their wish to keep fighting. After the war, there was a move in the US to take action against these officers for the unnecessary loss of life of US troops but it was quietly dropped. The views of the US Commanders was borne out by the fact that the German people were led to believe that their Army was undefeated but that the politicians had gone behind their back to surrender. Had the Treaty of Versailles not been so vindictive, and the Weimar Republic not come up with a plan to allow the German currency to be devalued in order to clear the crippling reparations, it is arguable that the conditions that led to the rise of Hitler might not have existed. The outcome post WW2, with the past very much in mind, was very different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert chamberlain Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Out or respect for the millions who suffered, I would stay away from any form of his symbol---Bob in Kansas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Jones 7 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Interesting discussion, out of interest does anyone know if allowances are made for German teams entering scale competitions outside of Germany with a model that should include the Swastika as part of its scheme? Is the fact it’s missing ignored? Do they display it only in the country of the competition for the duration or do the very sensible Germans just tend to not model these aircraft/ schemes? Would seem a shame not to be able to celebrate the designs of possibly some of the most advanced and iconic aircraft of the era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Just to clarify the situation, the original post made by Stearman65 has disappeared into the ether, presumably as a result of a forum glitch. It featured totally innocuous photographs of a Fieseler Storch. It has not been deleted by any of the mods. It does happen from time to time and we cannot get a satisfactory explanation from the techies. A sensitive subject, yes, but one that is clearly of interest, although I'm wondering if some are delving a bit too deeply into the pyschology of it. After all, it's a fairly simple question, isn't it? Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 It is to easy to blame one man, or a group. The whole point of point of the German camps used as reminders of the unacceptable, in case we forget, is that they reminders, to prompt everyone to resist behaviors that are not acceptable. What I find difficult to deal with is that the issue is polarized or focused as being unique. Many of the terrible occurrences were not uniquely the first time something similar has occurred. Plus some aspects are repeated even today, in various forms. The swastika should be seen in that light, as a reoccurrence of the unacceptable, that often are arrived at bit by bit, by potentially the whole of mankind. Winning should not allow any of the issues to be swept under the carpet. Certainly the people who advocate and implement such acts should be seen for what they were, not as heroes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 I've changed my mind on this topic. At one time I was all in favour of featuring the swastika on the tailplane of my WWII Luftwaffe models, for the sake of historical accuracy. That was somewhat reinforced by being challenged for the Maltese crosses on the wings of a Pico Stick, by a French exchange student at an indoor meeting, with the rationale that it was important to address such incorrect and ignorant mistakes in history, by making sure that the actual symbols of hate were not unnecessarily hidden. However, those were very much semi-scale or stand way off scale models and not true to scale in every detail replicas and the omission of the swastika on the tail really isn't a big deal. If one really wants to have a representation on there then fine, or there are suitable alternatives with the cross arms blocked to give four squares, or just as easy to leave it off. I would personally be quite uncomfortable these days in trying to justify exhibiting the swastika to a person who was offended by that, where they had genuine grounds for that offence - such as a holocaust victim's family member. I haven't actually removed any swastikas, but I've made the decision not to fit them in future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 On a slightly lighter note, regarding symbology and with particular mention of Allied insignia and the comparison with Nazi symbology, this skit by Mitchell and Webb is a nice turnaround. https://youtu.be/qv2XGQBcvxQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wright Stuff Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Posted by Pete B - Moderator on 26/01/2019 10:10:50: A sensitive subject, yes, but one that is clearly of interest, although I'm wondering if some are delving a bit too deeply into the pyschology of it. After all, it's a fairly simple question, isn't it? Well, some of us haven't seen the question. But it strikes me as two separate interpretations of the question: 1) whether the modeller is internally comfortable with it, or 2) whether they worry about offending others. So, I don't think it's a such simple question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Simmons Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 I feel that if you do want to build a model of German Aircraft during WW2, are you glorifying the Nazis, No and I am interested in advancement and ideas of the arms race during that time. Raiders of the lost ark film has a swastika on the aircraft used in an action scene and it was acceptable due to it being "film art" in Germany. It's illegal in Germany to have a swastika on any models and I wonder in say another 100 years in the future, will it still be the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wright Stuff Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Posted by Keith Simmons on 28/01/2019 15:29:50: It's illegal in Germany to have a swastika on any models and I wonder in say another 100 years in the future, will it still be the case? I get the impression that things are already changing. It'll be less than 100 years... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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