Are 3-D planes a bit of a 'cheat'?

[leccyflyer]

31 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

It's no good looking out of a window, our old model field is now an ultralight field and less than 400 metres to the east on flat land and the wind direction from there to our field is often different, if it changes on the way to your field maybe you should get a faster car.😅

In other news, weather varies, spatially and temporally in both short distances and short times. This morning, at the field, the windspeed varied from around 8mp to 13mph and gusts were well over that. Just a normal day.

[paul devereux]

14 hours ago, leccyflyer said:

Like you say Ron, there's a significant difference between gyro stabilisation and flight controllers - like the difference between A3X, which is a really useful addition to a scale model especially, smoothing out disruptions in turbulent air, whilst allowing complete control of the model - and SAFE, which is horrible IMO, 

This  is where my knowledge is deficient. I don't know the difference between these things. I tried SAFE setting 3 (novice) on a HZ Champ 4 channel (100gm park flyer), and although I now know it had a seriously rear CG, I found it uncontrollable. It was just about controllable with SAFE off. The idea that the plane would fight me every time I tried to roll or loop confused me more as a beginner, I think. The next time we have some calm weather, I'll try it out (setting 3) and see what it is like, now the plane has some nose weight.

Maybe learning on a tail-heavy plane actually helped develop my skills.

[paul devereux]

9 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Maybe you should invest in one of these,,,

 

https://www.openwindmap.org/pp924

 

7 hours ago, Ron Gray said:

Leccy is quite correct that wind forecasts do not necessarily give you the actual conditions at the field! I have had a weather station for many years and I do study (become obsessed according to my wife) weather and weather patterns and as a result I can tell you exactly what the weather is like, in my garden. 5 miles up the road at our flying site the conditions can be, and usually are a lot different and the wind direction and speed also varies greatly in relation to the ground. If you have read Peter Jenkins write up of an F3a comp held on our site a few weeks ago you may spot his note that the club gazebo (a pop up type 6m x 3m) was torn from its lashings, lifted vertically then dumped onto the club hut. The forecast was for gusts up to 15mph but that one was nearly double!

I use find the BBC and Met Office sites change their forecasts overnight quite significantly. The best way to judge the weather is looking out the window before you head to the field.

[paul devereux]

6 hours ago, Zflyer said:

Most military jets use flight control aids, that diesnt make the pilots crash test dummies, probably would be without though. Any way i didnt think the thread was about gyro/stabilisation.

Of course not. Modern military and civilian planes are incredibly complex and use all sorts of fly by wire aids. As you say, my question was more about whether such aids or designs are useful or not useful in learning aerobatic skills. 

[paul devereux]

7 hours ago, Ron Gray said:

Which now brings me back to the OP, is it cheating to use specific models and by extension electronic aids? Why stop at demonising gyros why not computer radios with specific mixes for things like spin conditions, knife edge, snap rolls, landings etc. One could argue that it is not really the pilot controlling the model all he does is flick a switch then carry out the manoeuvres with different settings. Surely that then depends on his skill as a programmer, not a pilot?

I 100% agree with this. That is my concern: if a computer or specialized design is doing the work, why not just watch a video of someone else flying? The point about flying is the challenge, imo. (Of course, as a learner, just about everything is a challenge anyway, lol).

Anyway, I'm not trying to stoke controversy, I'm just trying to understand the hobby. And every contribution to this thread has been useful to me. So thanks to you all.

 

[Ron Gray]

10 hours ago, paul devereux said:

This  is where my knowledge is deficient. I don't know the difference between these things

There are a multitude of different gyros / stabilisers (I'll call them gyros from now!) and ditto flight controllers and there is a grey area in between where some functions overlap. Putting it simply, a gyro is a device that can respond to changes in the aircraft's attitude and nullify such changes, an example would be a gust of wind that flicks one wing up, the gyro levels the wings again much quicker than you can. A flight controller is a device, that usually includes a gyro and a barometer and can also be linked to a gps receiver (so can some gyros!), that can be programmed to fly the model, for instance flying a pattern (say a circle) over a certain bit of land and holding that size of circle and position without any pilot input.

 

Going back to the gyro, the simple ones are called 3 axis as they operate on the roll (ailerons), pitch (elevator) and yaw (rudder) and in most cases have at least 3 functions, (my words as they tend to use different terms depending on the manufacturer)smoothing, levelling and off. The smoothing function does what I said above, it 'irons out' sudden changes caused by external forces (wind), levelling goes a stage further and tends to resist most changes and therefore attempts to keep level flight. Off is where you can switch the gyro off. The amount by which the gyro smooths the flight is normally controlled by a gain control, this can be via a 'pot' on the gyro which you turn one way to increase and the other to decrease but increasingly more can be controlled by a rotary switch on the Tx. The idea is that you adjust the amount of gain so that it is not too intrusive to normal flying, in other words you don't feel that you are fighting it. The levelling function can be quite intrusive as you could well be fighting with it when you try to banking it's trying to keep it level! There are lots of other functions that some gyros now have and I won't go into them now as that could lead to confusion apart from one which has gained popularity, I'll call it Panic! This is usual operated by a Tx switch and is deployed when you are losing control, let's say upside down 45º towards the ground, flick the switch and the model will turn upright and level off allowing you to regain control.

 

Hopefully that sheds some light.

[Cuban8]

12 hours ago, paul devereux said:

 

I use find the BBC and Met Office sites change their forecasts overnight quite significantly. The best way to judge the weather is looking out the window before you head to the field.

Some very good weather radar Apps around giving extra range to one's window's view.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Had to snigger (for once!) at the cartoon in the BMFA News which arrived this morning.  I’d post it here but it’s copyrighted. 

[Nigel Heather]

On 20/07/2023 at 22:23, paul devereux said:

I was walking my dog in our local rec today when I saw someone flying a 3-D plane: about 40 inch span, it wasn't profile (it had a thick fuselage), but it had comparatively huge flying surfaces and control surfaces, and vertical winglets on the ends of the main-plane and a small horizontal winglet on top of the fus. So it was custom-built for aerobatics. And he did a lot- consecutive rolls, rolls when climbing vertically, far tighter loops inside and outside than I could manage, and it all looked impressive. One dog-walker clapped and shouted "well done" when he landed and she wasn't being ironic.

Now my question is, to people more knowledgeable than myself:  he was obviously very skilled, and in perfect control of his plane at all times- but was he cheating by having a model custom-built to do these things? I'm trying to teach myself to do some basic aerobatics, using YouTube and this forum, but I'm not even sure if I had his skill that my little, battered Wot 4 would be capable of doing much like that. Or is it the case that, he probably learned on what I have, and that if I had his plane I would soon be in trouble, the same as my first flights on my sports plane used to get me in trouble then?

I suppose this question might boil down to: would I find learning basic aerobatics easier on a 3-D plane or easier on my sports plane? I'm well aware that my age is against me (old dogs and new tricks, etc).

My copy of BMFA News arrived today - check out the Bertie cartoon on the contents page - made me think of this thread.

[Ron Gray]

A classic example of where a gyro would have helped was yesterday up at the field. One of our members is a competent (has his A)but nervous flyer. He took his foamie Acrowat up to check the trimming after some repair works and after a couple of down elevator clicks it was fine. Unfortunately the conditions at the field saw some very ‘bumpy’ wind right at the altitude he was flying and it bounced the Acrowat quite severely. Whilst he is improving he is very nervous about flying in windy conditions and this event forced him to land and that was the end of his flying for the day.

 

If a gyro had been fitted, and once again I stress that it must be correctly tuned, he wouldn’t have had the shock of that turbulence and he could have continued to fly thus increasing his skill but more importantly his confidence.

 

He will be fitting one to the model and I will assist him in setting it up next time we fly.

[leccyflyer]

Good post Ron and surely that's the whole point -extending the number of days when the pilot is happy to fly, increasing his confidence and competence and increasing his enjoyment of the hobby.

[Cuban8]

On 25/07/2023 at 12:29, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

Had to snigger (for once!) at the cartoon in the BMFA News which arrived this morning.  I’d post it here but it’s copyrighted. 

With apologies to and paraphrasing a certain Mr E. Blackadder.......I laughed so hard, I fear that my sides have split........well not actually. Another bundle of laughs from our soaraway BMFA News. Perhaps a change of editor (very sorry to hear that the current incumbent has not been well) will refresh things.