Are 3-D planes a bit of a 'cheat'?

[paul devereux]

3 hours ago, Brian Cooper said:

Gyros: 

I have tried the best and have not liked them. . . I gave them away. 

It is like having a "Nanny" onboard, constantly wagging her finger and saying, "Nanny knows best."

Well, Nanny does NOT ruddy well know best. 

 

Gyros interfere and they delay your control inputs.

They are an infuriating gadget and utterly useless for spirited 3-D flying. 

 

There are no Nannies in any of my models.  

I'm so pleased to see this post -I think! I started learning a year ago with a second hand (but reliable) Futaba radio and a 4 channel foamie (Wot 4).  On my first flight, despite studying numerous YouTube videos, I lost control within a few seconds, the plane flew over my head and behind me, I couldn't recover it and it trashed the prop, fuselage and tore the wing in half. With a new fus, repaired wing and new-found experience, I re-started learning by making small hops, then larger hops, then circuits and figure eights. Then I joined this forum, learned how to programme a radio and trim a plane, and put in dual rates. I put in 50% less movement, so that I could judge if it was effective, hoping flying would be easier. I made several mistakes with this- 50% was too much, and I had forgotten which switches I had assigned D/R to. The result was just after take off I thought I had lost radio signal, as the plane didn't respond. I got down safely, and cancelled out the D/R, to fly again, and the plane flew normally. 

(I will say, it is so useful getting other peoples views as I don't belong to a club.)

[Graham Bowers]

7 hours ago, paul devereux said:

This is new to me! Thanks for mentioning it! I shall do some research.

The internet has plenty on this, however allow me to highlight a couple of links that a general search may not return:

 

https://www.gbrcaa.org/?page_id=1072

 

There's one broken link on that page, however the document it should link to is here: https://ita.bmfa.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Basic-Trimming-for-Aerobatics-04-05-2023.pdf This is the one I use, in conjunction with the book mentioned below, and making the adjustments has transforming how my models fly - in the context of learning precision aerobatic manoeuvres, using models not designed for that purpose. (SLEC funfly, Balsacraft Xtreme)

 

I note the book I alluded above was mentioned by the author, @Peter Jenkins , in the third post of this thread. He devotes around 25 pages to various aspects of trimming / tuning and in my opinion, you will not find a better resource.

 

 

[Ron Gray]

8 hours ago, paul devereux said:

that is a reasonable facsimile of a full-size GA plane

TBH that is what I try and aim for in most of my flying but especially so with scale (sounds obvious!). 
 

Again don’t mix up gyro stabilisation with flight controllers, the first, when tuned correctly, will assist in damping down the effects of say strong gusts of winds including rotors and shear the second type can give you the ‘fly by wire’ which you don’t want, which is fair enough. If a gyro is interfering with your flying then it is incorrectly setup, a bit like your rates were.

 

Now from my posts you may be thinking that I am a strong advocate of gyros, I’m not and when I’m teaching I make sure that none are being used whilst on my buddy lead. But they can have their place, because, as Martin said previously, they can extend the flying envelope as they can negate some of the external forces thus allowing you to continue to fly. I know of one very good F3A pilot who uses one when he’s practicing, he only has it switched on when taking off and landing. His reasoning is that those are the 2 situations where a ‘nasty’ gust of wind could result in serious model damage (expensive). If he didn’t fly when those conditions were present then that would reduce his practice time which would make him less competitive. As for me I have gyros in 5 models (none of the scale ones apart from the Tigercat and small ones) and flight controllers in 4 (but they are there so that I can play with automated flights) the rest of my models (all 50+ of them) are gyro-less.

[leccyflyer]

Like you say Ron, there's a significant difference between gyro stabilisation and flight controllers - like the difference between A3X, which is a really useful addition to a scale model especially, smoothing out disruptions in turbulent air, whilst allowing complete control of the model - and SAFE, which is horrible IMO, but which does still have some use, most especially in those take off and landing stages. Using stabilisation for hand launching is a boon - some of my clubmates use it in small twitchy models for handlaunching and they go away as good as gold. As soon as they are established in the climb, they have the stabilisation on a switch and switch it off for normal manouvering. Another clubmate has SAFE set up as a Panic Button, should he get disorientated or in trouble due to an unintended awkward situation. I'd considered doing the same myself, but haven't got a round tuit yet. I have several SAFE capable receivers, but with SAFE disabled on all of them. The vast majority of my models have no such aids to flight stability.

[Ron Gray]

Yes, SAFE can save destroying an airframe.

[Paul Johnson 4]

1 hour ago, Ron Gray said:

the rest of my models (all 50+ of them) are gyro-less.

Ron you have WAY too much storage space....😛

[Ron Gray]

It is starting run out!

[leccyflyer]

On 23/07/2023 at 09:31, Ron Gray said:

Not true! With correct control throws they fly very nicely without, but, as Leccy has pointed out, with it on they can be flown around in conditions that would see much larger, non stabilised, models grounded.

Forecast for this morning was fine, with 5-6mph wind, no rain and good for flying. Rocked up at the field and it was blowing much stronger than that, but at least it was mostly down the strip. My windmeter registered a steady 13mph with much stronger gusts and quite blustery. I flew my MIni Astro Hog, but it was a bit of a wild ride - however got her up and down in one piece, whilst far from comfortable near the ground. Pulled off a decent enough landing after a couple of practice approaches. The other models stayed in the car, but I was able to fly my Sonik RC Spitfire with ease, though the groundspeed downwind was spectacular and the gyro was working overtime to keep the wee thing in the air -penetration into wind with full throttle was perfectly fine and I had a decent flight. Landing was a doddle, just reduce the throttle to match the windspeed and decend gently, almost vertically to a soft landing on the grass. Compared to the roller coaster initial approach from the Mini Astro Hog the difference was quite amazing. That's what the stabilisation gives you, if you want to extend your flying opportunities, the capability to take a lot of the risk in landing in windy, blustery conditions - I think your point about extending the number of viale practice days is spot on.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Maybe you should invest in one of these,,,

 

https://www.openwindmap.org/pp924

[leccyflyer]

9 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Maybe you should invest in one of these,,,

 

https://www.openwindmap.org/pp924

No need, I already have multiple online and mobile resources to provide wind forecasts, but very often the forecast wind strength does not match reality.  Estimation of windspeed comes with experience and knowing which models will perform well is part of the learning curve in the hobby.

 

The windspeed itself is not the whole story, wind direction is critical - there's no real issue flying in a smooth, steady, high windspeed if its in the right direction. If the wind comes from a different direction then, depending on your site, things can get very turbilent very quickly.  If you didn;t learn to fly in the wind the number of flyable days is decreased dramatically. Ron's point, which is pertinent to this thread, is that stabilisation aids can help to extend the number of flyable days to practice aerobatics, if that is what you are interested in, whilst reducing the risk of damaging an expensive airframe due to unpredictable and turbulent conditions close to the ground.

[Philip Lewis 3]

35 minutes ago, leccyflyer said:

Stabilisation aids can help to extend the number of flyable days to practice aerobatics, if that is what you are interested in, whilst reducing the risk of damaging an expensive airframe due to unpredictable and turbulent conditions close to the ground.

I don't disagree with that point and it is certainly a benefit if practising with a smaller model but do bear in mind that if you intend to compete in aerobatic competitions you aren't allowed to use any stabilisation aids, so, to a certain extent practising with them would be pointless if you intend to compete with that model, you just have to learn how to deal with it, and if the wind is blowing into your face or at your back at 20MPH they don't re-set the light line either, you just have to deal with it, practising flying in a straight line in a crosswind is just part of practicing.

[Ron Gray]

Please read my post above about a very good (current) F3a pilot who does use one when practicing, to minimise risk, it is not pointless and is not limited to smaller models! He does switch it off after take off and landing and I would add that his scores that he has achieved in competitions are down to the fact that he has been able to extend his practice times because of the use go the gyro.

[Ron Gray]

Leccy is quite correct that wind forecasts do not necessarily give you the actual conditions at the field! I have had a weather station for many years and I do study (become obsessed according to my wife) weather and weather patterns and as a result I can tell you exactly what the weather is like, in my garden. 5 miles up the road at our flying site the conditions can be, and usually are a lot different and the wind direction and speed also varies greatly in relation to the ground. If you have read Peter Jenkins write up of an F3a comp held on our site a few weeks ago you may spot his note that the club gazebo (a pop up type 6m x 3m) was torn from its lashings, lifted vertically then dumped onto the club hut. The forecast was for gusts up to 15mph but that one was nearly double!

[Peter Jenkins]

Hi Ron, Phil actually also flies in F3A competitions and is merely pointing out that the rules state you must not have such a function in your model.  At International events you would have your model fail validation.  It doesn't matter if you say you only use it for take off and landing.  Incidentally, Take off and Landing are marked in Clubman and Intermediate so using the gyro there is clearly cheating.  This is not the case with Masters and FAI(P)/(F).  I guess it comes down to how you read and interpret the rules.  A way out is to remove the function physically before competition so you gain from reducing risk on landing (I personally think the take off risk is far smaller and wouldn't bother to use a gyro for that).   A recent ruling by the FAI has outlawed the use of Flight Coach in competition.  There is no reason you cannot use it in practice but definitely not in competition.  I use a small key chain camera to record my flights but that is also now not allowed for competition flying.  Folk may think this is all very silly but that's what the rules state and if you want to fly in competition then you have to abide by the rules.

 

I entirely take your point about being able to fly in turbulent conditions for take off and landing during practice.  I have several broken u/c legs to my credit for landing accidents in very gusty conditions - most recently during the 2nd of 3 flights at a competition!  Arguably, using a pitch/roll levelling gyro would have removed that risk during practice.  The alternative view is that unless you are up to speed in handling turbulent landing conditions during a competition then you are increasing the risk of a landing incident/accident.  I tend to take the latter view so do not use gyros to help in landing even during practice.  Just my view.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Ron's Quote " Leccy is quite correct that wind forecasts do not necessarily give you the actual conditions at the field!" no you aren't !, open up the lien, and you will set that it is perfect, it is on our model field next to the runway !.

[Ron Gray]

I know he does Peter and I too know the rules of F3a (as you well know!). I have not nor am I saying you should use them in comps but their use to give you more practice time without having to worry about damaging your (very) expensive props and UC seems a no brainer to me. As you also know you cannot react to strong gusts as quickly as a gyro can!

 

Which now brings me back to the OP, is it cheating to use specific models and by extension electronic aids? Why stop at demonising gyros why not computer radios with specific mixes for things like spin conditions, knife edge, snap rolls, landings etc. One could argue that it is not really the pilot controlling the model all he does is flick a switch then carry out the manoeuvres with different settings. Surely that then depends on his skill as a programmer, not a pilot?

[Ron Gray]

6 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

open up the lien, and you will set that it is perfect

I think something got lost in translation Paul. I'm guessing that you have a weather station or feed from your site, which is why I said 'do not necessarily.........'

[leccyflyer]

1 hour ago, Philip Lewis 3 said:

I don't disagree with that point and it is certainly a benefit if practising with a smaller model but do bear in mind that if you intend to compete in aerobatic competitions you aren't allowed to use any stabilisation aids, so, to a certain extent practising with them would be pointless if you intend to compete with that model, you just have to learn how to deal with it, and if the wind is blowing into your face or at your back at 20MPH they don't re-set the light line either, you just have to deal with it, practising flying in a straight line in a crosswind is just part of practicing.

I'm never going to compete in an aerobatic contest though. It's not something that interests me. 

 

Neither Ron, nor myself was talking about practicing with stabilisation aids during the aerobatic routines, we were both talking about the capability to reduce the risk of airframe damage when taking off and landing in particular on windier days, then switching the stabilisation off in order to practice in that wind.  That is what we posted. Nothing about using stabilisation aids for practicing aerobatics.

[leccyflyer]

1 hour ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Ron's Quote " Leccy is quite correct that wind forecasts do not necessarily give you the actual conditions at the field!" no you aren't !, open up the lien, and you will set that it is perfect, it is on our model field next to the runway !.

 Ron's post and quote were correct - I did click on the link and data from a weather station at your flying field in France is in the realms of chocolate fireguards in terms of usefulness to me. I can look out of the window and get a current wind situation for my flying field just a few miles away, but even that can change on just that short drive to the field. Dealing with wind is just a part of model flying and we should each be aware of what particular wind conditions we are comfortable flying in, at any particular time.

[Peter Jenkins]

53 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

I know he does Peter and I too know the rules of F3a (as you well know!). I have not nor am I saying you should use them in comps but their use to give you more practice time without having to worry about damaging your (very) expensive props and UC seems a no brainer to me. As you also know you cannot react to strong gusts as quickly as a gyro can!

 

Which now brings me back to the OP, is it cheating to use specific models and by extension electronic aids? Why stop at demonising gyros why not computer radios with specific mixes for things like spin conditions, knife edge, snap rolls, landings etc. One could argue that it is not really the pilot controlling the model all he does is flick a switch then carry out the manoeuvres with different settings. Surely that then depends on his skill as a programmer, not a pilot?

All true Ron, but the rules allow the use of rates and mixes and stick position switches.  The rules do not allow the use of gyros.  That's the point.  Like I said, it's fine to use gyros to help to control the aircraft when landing in gusty conditions when training but you have then to remove them for competition.  My point is that you might not be used to dealing with landing in gusty conditions in a competition if you used the gyro when practicing.  Yes, the carnage in props and u/c as a result of less than perfect arrivals is an issue!

[Zflyer]

There will always be those for and against. Where the rules deem them outbounds thats that. Otherwise if you find them helpfull use them, your choice. 

Most military jets use flight control aids, that diesnt make the pilots crash test dummies, probably would be without though. Any way i didnt think the thread was about gyro/stabilisation.

 

 

[leccyflyer]

Just now, Zflyer said:

There will always be those for and against. Where the rules deem them outbounds thats that. Otherwise if you find them helpfull use them, your choice. 

Most military jets use flight control aids, that diesnt make the pilots crash test dummies, probably would be without though. Any way i didnt think the thread was about gyro/stabilisation.

 

 

Correct, it wasn't - however it's a bit of a bee in the bonnet of the OP, so inevitably it found it's way into the thread alongside those accusations of "cheating". Again. 🤨

[Ron Gray]

Yup, what he said.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

1 hour ago, leccyflyer said:

 Ron's post and quote were correct - I did click on the link and data from a weather station at your flying field in France is in the realms of chocolate fireguards in terms of usefulness to me. I can look out of the window and get a current wind situation for my flying field just a few miles away, but even that can change on just that short drive to the field. Dealing with wind is just a part of model flying and we should each be aware of what particular wind conditions we are comfortable flying in, at any particular time.

It's no good looking out of a window, our old model field is now an ultralight field and less than 400 metres to the east on flat land and the wind direction from there to our field is often different, if it changes on the way to your field maybe you should get a faster car.😅

[Ron Gray]

Somehow, in your own way, I think you are agreeing Paul!