Someone to supply a complete laser-cut kit in UK

[Ron Gray]

Laminating film will stick to painted play / balsa and the colour will show through. You can even paint the reverse side of laminating film and then apply it!

[Don Fry]

58 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

Laminating film will stick to painted play / balsa and the colour will show through. You can even paint the reverse side of laminating film and then apply it!

What sort of paint on the glue side and then stick Ron. I am interested, current hooligan hack will have an off wall paint job.

[Sam Longley]

Well I bought all the balsa for a total balsa wing construction today & my wallet is £170-63 lighter . I do not think that is too bad. It included acouple of tubes of glue , the steel for the landing wheel & a motor mount . But obviously no covering or paint. The shop was empty so the chap was able to spend 1.5 hours with me & meticulously sorted the right grade of balsa for each component. I had prepared a list for wings, fuselage & tailplane. So each section was separate until the wife picked it all up & put it in the car as one. Shuffling the sheets as she went.

Such is life

I think that if I scolloped the sheeting between the ribs & shaped it at the ends it could look quite neat under the film. The edges would automatically be sharp & even both sides of the wing.

If all goes well I might try a foam wing as well. Coloured balsa & some exposed blue foam with some routered out lightening spaces near the tips would look OK.

I have found a source of 200gram carbon cloth for £70. I am wondering if to buy it & strand some of it to set into the foam as strengthening strips. Just another line of thought.

Balsa Cabin have some Overlander electric motors, ESC's & programmers. Total would come out around £ 110-00 for an 80 amp ESC & 1000 watt motor. Perhaps that would be a power option instead of my older OS55- Any thoughts? Would need a couple of 6S batteries.

Family want to buy something for Xmas & this setup would seem a good Xmas prezzie. What do forumites think of Overlander motors

 

 

[kc]

Sam,

Some foam wings were only partially sheeted  like the  Avicraft Moronic etc  in the original versions.  But veneer 'cap strips'  were used between LE & TE.   Centre section was fully sheeted with tapered LE and a narrow TE.   Works extremely well and the result is a wing that is lightweight and actually looks like a built up wing.   I think the capstrips are needed on foam wings when not fully sheeted.      Scalloped edges might look good but actually the tapered LE could be painted and look smart.

 

Carbon fibre strips called 'tows' used to be available quite cheaply for strengthening gliders etc.

[Sam Longley]

18 minutes ago, kc said:

Sam,

Some foam wings were only partially sheeted  like the  Avicraft Moronic etc  in the original versions.  But veneer 'cap strips'  were used between LE & TE.   Centre section was fully sheeted with tapered LE and a narrow TE.   Works extremely well and the result is a wing that is lightweight and actually looks like a built up wing.   I think the capstrips are needed on foam wings when not fully sheeted.      Scalloped edges might look good but actually the tapered LE could be painted and look smart.

 

Carbon fibre strips called 'tows' used to be available quite cheaply for strengthening gliders etc.

Yes.partially sheeting would be my intention. I think that the blue of the exposed foam - which will NOT be hard against the laminating film- may show as a slight blue haze. That might look good against the painted cap strips & as you suggest decorated ends.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Sam Longley
spelling

[Ron Gray]

On 25/11/2023 at 15:43, Sam Longley said:

What do forumites think of Overlander motors

I only have experience of their smaller motors but am very happy with them. 

[Sam Longley]

24 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

I only have experience of their smaller motors but am very happy with them. 

As you seem to be the forum expert on laminating film ( I have just ordered a roll Boss premium 38g gloss) I was hoping that you would answer Don Fry's post above about what paint under the laminating film. Obviously I do not want to add excess weight but iwould love some guidance on application ( Any suggested link?) & type of paint for the balsa. It would- one assumes- be different to that used on the outside of the film

[kc]

I wonder if we  ( Don and also myself ) have misunderstood Ron's post?    Perhaps " paint the reverse side  "  means the outside  and not the 'sticky side?

 

Instead of paint I wonder if applying a pre printed decal onto the laminating film would be lightweight enough yet give an attractive finish.   Quite a few decal printing firms who print to your own design have been suggested on the forum in the past.     Or just buy the decal coloured material and cut with a scalpel like we used to do with Solartrim.    Or could we paint a piece of laminating film then cut to shape with scalpel and laminate over the main laminating film? 

Edited November 27, 2023 by kc

[Sam Longley]

What had me thinking was a you tube video where a chap repaired an old , crashed glider. he stripped much of the old paint etc but patches of red were left. he did not bother to remove it as it was an old plane anyway. He just aplied laminated film over it. The red showed through as easy as you like. That suggests to me that a painted balsa surface with the right paint, primer & filler (if needed) would look good & not get damaged if repairs are done. Or it would be easy to touch up the paint if the covering had to be removed after a ding.

But the question is-----What paint, & how to apply to balsa.

[kc]

When you mentioned the Avanti I thought that was a strange choice of model and that perhaps a Loaded Dice or Akro Special might be more modern & better .  Having seen the Avanti construction video I can see why you chose it - it's a sleek model.   It's very similar to the Ultrasport 60 which is a newer design but not as sleek.  Both based on the Kaos with improvements.

 

My view is that for electric you need to build the fuselage with electric in mind - leaving out the engine bearers and move the engine bulkhead forward to suit the electric motor & get the Lipo well forward.   Maybe lighter construction for electric as well.

 

I watched just the first video showiing cutting out ribs - it's good method but I noticed he didn't seem to take much care to keep the scalpel absolutely upright when cutting the second rib.   Big danger of cutting the underneath rib undersize if the scalpel is not vertical,  but perhaps he cut a lot oversize and relied on sanding to size.

 

Nowadays most people would use 2 aileron servos and  fit wingbolts instead of rubber bands to hold the wing.   Its easier to think this out in advance than hack the wood around later!    So putting holes in the ribs for servo leads and making provision for a wing bolt plate and dowel hole could ( should ) be done at a very early stage in my view.

 

Just my thoughts after looking at the plan.                                            

 

[Sam Longley]

37 minutes ago, kc said:

When you mentioned the Avanti I thought that was a strange choice of model and that perhaps a Loaded Dice or Akro Special might be more modern & better .  Having seen the Avanti construction video I can see why you chose it - it's a sleek model.   It's very similar to the Ultrasport 60 which is a newer design but not as sleek.  Both based on the Kaos with improvements.

 

My view is that for electric you need to build the fuselage with electric in mind - leaving out the engine bearers and move the engine bulkhead forward to suit the electric motor & get the Lipo well forward.   Maybe lighter construction for electric as well.

 

I watched just the first video showiing cutting out ribs - it's good method but I noticed he didn't seem to take much care to keep the scalpel absolutely upright when cutting the second rib.   Big danger of cutting the underneath rib undersize if the scalpel is not vertical,  but perhaps he cut a lot oversize and relied on sanding to size.

 

Nowadays most people would use 2 aileron servos and  fit wingbolts instead of rubber bands to hold the wing.   Its easier to think this out in advance than hack the wood around later!    So putting holes in the ribs for servo leads and making provision for a wing bolt plate and dowel hole could ( should ) be done at a very early stage in my view.

 

Just my thoughts after looking at the plan.                                            

 

Justifiable comments. In a later revised build video, Mark does use a bolted wing & I will adopt something along these lines. I also intend to have 2 wing servos.

To cut the components from the patterns, I will be fixing 2 sheets of balsa together & cutting with my bandsaw.

 

Re the electric motor, I have asked the club chairman to put me in touch with a member who is very knowledgeble in electrics. Hopefully he can advise re the size of motor I need, plus, installation, ventilation etc. plus help with some advice on fitting it with the correct battery & ESC. What will be an issue is maintaining C of G.

I have been in contact with Mark Robinson & he thinks that I should stick with my OS 55 glow engine.

I am undecided

In any event the RCM article refers to good low speed handling take off & landing etc. It was also an early competition winning  pattern ship that did the smooth loops & rolls of the competitions of the time, which is the limit of my flying at present. So I am looking to learn to handle nice smooth flights

Edited November 28, 2023 by Sam Longley

[kc]

The secret to electric flight seems to be build light and use smaller lipos which keeps the overal weight down and is cheaper.   I fly at an all electric club and we see 65 to 78 inch models being flown on 3S 5000 etc quite regularly.    But the models are built for electric and leave out all the heavy fuselage reinforcement found in traditional i.c. models.   It's not needed.  The CG is helped by fitting the Lipo well forward or as necessary.  Fancy materials are not needed just good balsa construction. Just building like a glow model and then fitting a large motor and  6S Lipo is an expensive way to electrify! 

[kc]

If you look at the 4Max Recommended Set ups and scroll down the list you will find several models which give some clue as to what electric motor / prop / Lipo /ESC could be used.   Maybe the Capiche 60 at 4.4 pounds and the Moonglow 60 at 5.75 pounds are the most relevant, but note the different weight and suggested setup.  Very different weights and therefore size of Lipo/ESC and cost!  

[Sam Longley]

I fitted anelectric motor to my Jive & was extremely disapointed.It had very poor performance & rolls & loops were difficult due to poor power. I tried several prop varaiations. Needless to say, I am not impressed with their recommendations. My 2 recent limbos & current cougar all have .39 glows & go like stink.

An enya 60 gives 1.75 HP so that equates to about 1300 watts. But none of 4 max motors quote watts

Edited November 28, 2023 by Sam Longley

[kc]

I suggest you start a new thread to discuss the Jive -give the motor with kv details/prop/ESC/ Lipo details and the weight - someone will advise I am sure so it can be made to fly well.    A Watt meter will tell you a lot about the existing setup -borrow one if necessary.    I suspect kv was not right for the lipo and prop - could even be an incorrectly marked motor.  

All the electric models at my club (an electric only club  in mid Essex ) give good performance when the right components are used.   None of us want to go back to glow!

 

It will be easier to just build an Avanti to the plan ic spec than modify so that might be your best bet to utilise your time and get something worthwhile from the situation.

[Sam Longley]

The jive is not an issue now. But the point that i would make is the unreliability of following the motor sizes on some charts.

The motors for the 2 planes that you suggest on 4Purple Power's list have outputs far lower than an Enya 60.

There may be reasons for this, but I am worried about falling into the trap that I fell into with the Jive.

When the Avanti was designed electric power was not so prevalent & I accept that it was not considered.

But I would like to try it. I just need advice on the right power unit  etc. Having done that I can look at the weights & see how I can distribute the parts within the fuselage to maintain Cof G. If possible it would make a good plane I am sure.

But please do not think I am being deliberately critical of your suggestions. I am open to any that might help

Thanks

[David Davis]

This is interesting.

 

4-Max's power suggestions for a Radio Queen, alright a completely different type of model compared to the Avanti, produced a model which was grossly overpowered and very unpleasant to fly. It was only by fitting a smaller motor and 3S battery that the flight characteristics were improved.

[kc]

It seems glow motors often quote horsepower without silencer  and probably with a very small prop that would be too noisy for British flying sites, so you cannot really equate i.c. max hp with electric watts.

 

Rule of thumb often quoted for electric prop driven motors  is -

 

40 to 50 watts per pound weight  for vintage models or slow models

100 watts per pound for aerobatic models for reasonable performance

150 watts per pound for extreme performance

200 watts for maniacs

 

other factors like drag for biplanes also come into it of course.

 

Obviously more watts means larger and heavier  Lipo.   Long flying time also means larger and heavier Lipo.  

Glow motors have the heavy parts - bearings, crankshaft etc right at the front, while electric setup may weigh the same the lipo has most of the weight so Lipo needs to go right up behind the motor if possible.    The Avanti is drawn as a trike model so the front bulkhead which takes nosewheel is right where the Lipo would ideally go.   Moving the bulkhead forward to suit electric is not quite as easy as on a taildragger.

If you want to electrify then consider whether you could reduce the weight ( with Lipo ) to 5 pounds or 5.5 pound for a modest 600 watt setup or would it come out at 6 pounds or more and need 750 to 1000 watts.   Electric does not need fuel proofing which saves weight and film covering would also save weight.   To build light for electric really needs thinking out right at the start rather than trying to hack around a fuselage that is already built.

 

The Avanti is the kind of sleek model that would suit electric, but at 60 inches its near the size where glow is cheaper than having lots of the large and expensive Lipos that would be needed.    So if you have an OS55 etc available it would be easier, quicker and much cheaper to build to the plan.   

I note that the plan does not show ply doublers to the fuselage - in my view a 1/32 ply doubler for the fuselage would help it keep shape to rebuild after a crash and could replace the 3/16 doubler ( although it neeeds balsa right at the edges where it's rounded to shape fuselage nicely )

 

All just my own opinion after studying the plan online - other opinions may be available......

 

 

 

 

[Tom Gaskin 1]

My 'go to' setup for a sixty-sized model would be an AXI4120-14 on a 5S1P 4000 mAh lipo, running a 13x6.5 prop, with an 80 amp ESC. A pricey motor I grant you, but they have yet to disappoint.It's a 5055, 660 KV motor so there are alternatives.

 

The Texan 2 (originally built for I.C.) has the 4120, while the Chili Breeze behind it uses an AXI2820-10.

 

Tom

Edited November 30, 2023 by Tom Gaskin 1
Picture added

[Sam Longley]

Two interesting replies that will need some consideration. Thanks for taking the time.

Sam L

 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

If you want that in kilos,,

 

Motoplaneur, foamie léger, Piper Cub : 100 watts par kilo

Trainer : 150 watts par kilo

Warbird, voltigeur de "sport" : 200 watts par kilo

Racer, 3D : 300 watts par kilo

Jet à turbine : 400 watts par kilo

 

 I can translate if needed,,