artfs

[Len Ward]

There really is only one way to learn to fly and that's to join a club.
Yes some clubs are cliques,but a lot[most]arent.I belong to 2 clubs in Cheshire and Hampshire,and,it's strange but whilst the names are different ,the personalities are the same!,ie passionate about the hobby and politically somewhere to the right of Gengis Kahn! I exaggerate,but as a stranger eager to learn I was always welcome and helped into the hobby.In those days ,however,it was buy the bits and build a kit.It's possible that the artf entry does not carry the commitment from the applicant to "try and to get on with the guys?" and learn the basics.After all when you learn to fly full size you first have to learn about what makes a plane[apologies to my instructor,an aeroplane]fly and related topics.It is a difficult thing to learn and I suspect one of the problems is the lack of instant gratification and the realisation that you cant become an expert in 10 mins? Having said that we dont really do much to publicise ourselves nor is the BMFA at the forefront of pushing our hobby/sport.I can only speak personally as the chairman of one club for a few years that we are very keen to nip awkward so and so's in the bud and welcome people to our site subject to them obeying the rules of safety.
We could of course compile a blacklist of clubs?????

[The real Ron Truth]

Len,

Club politics is nothing new but can put people off. My local club chairman and secretary are possibly 2 of the most unapproachable people I have ever met.Short tempered and bluntly spoken. I asked on day 1, for the details of the no fly areas and was told " you fly and well tell you if its wrong". I promptly flew right over the club caravan with both of them in it to see what they would say!!!

[Dead-stick]

Len Ward E-mail member
Posted: 05/07/07 19:32:32 PM
There really is only one way to learn to fly and that's to join a club.



Not so, you can always teach yourself to fly, as I did. This can be achieved by reading about the theory of flight and /or using one of the latest simulators available to hone your skills. With the availability of so many foam/EPP ARTF's about, it shouldn't cost an arm and a leg either. Once the basics have been mastered, then a larger 'crunchie' model can be contemplated, etc. etc.....

[Peter Miller]

I taught myself to fly long before simulators. The secret is a model that will return to level flight if you take your fingers off the sticks. One that is slow enough to allow one time to think.
Any modern trainer that says that it will fly aerobatics is NOT any use for that.
I started with a Super Sixty on rudder and throttle and then changed it to Rudder Elevator. I only had a two channel set.
Then when I finally got a four channel set I went on to a Tyro Major. So stable that when I forgot to switch on it flew for four miles.
A Barnstormer was another good three channel model.
I did have one advantage, I came up through control line and free flight as most of us did in those days. This gave one an appreciation of trimming and the effect of controls and how to repair models.

[Len Ward]

Sorry,I'm unrepentant.Find a club and also whether they they welcome new members and have club trainers.It's possible to learn yourself but please be aware of the need to be insured,and the best way to do this is via membership of a club that is affiliated to the BMFA.
The best model to learn on is another issue,either a 3 channel old timer like the Junior 60,or a 4 channel trainer,and here,I can speak highly of the Flair Pup,,if it's still in production.Many trainers are far too fast for the tyro and definetly need a buddy box linked to an experienced pilot.
Len

[Tony Jones]

Personally, I think the electric glider is the best trainer. Gets the beginner in the air right away, is slow enough to allow him time to think - especially when first dealing with that 'coming the other way aileron reversal' stage - and usually crashes softly enough not to do too much damage.
But most beginners want to start right away with something like a Spit or P51. I wonder if whoever it is that markets the 'P51 trainer' with barn doors attached to the the oleos has had much success...
Best wishes
Tony Jones.

[Peter Miller]

I agree that a good club is the best way to go. We have at least three members in our club who were refugees from other clubs where they just did not get the amount of help/time that they needed.
Yes Tony, an electric glider is similar to the sort of model that I was talking about for flying characteristics but it should be one of the larger ones. They cope with breezes a bit better, I suggest an Easy Pigeon, mine has been used to help a couple of learners. I have seen other similar sized models which were not as stable or forgiving for some reason.

[Dead-stick]

Len Ward E-mail member
Posted: 06/07/07 22:22:19 PM
Sorry,I'm unrepentant.
Len

That is your opinion. I, and many others are living proof that you can teach yourself if you have the dedication. I suppose one of the problems today is that people want instant gratification and success, and/or they have no patience or interest in learning the basics. I wonder how many of todays younger show pilots (as good as they seem) would be able to trim a scale free flight model, or cover one in tissue and dope (or even want to maybe!), never mind being able to build one from scratch! All a lot want is a cheque book hobby with no interest in the finer aspects of the sport.
I learnt the traditional way (in MY opinion) starting off with rubber power, Jetex, power free flight, control line, single channel and finally onto full house r/c. This was over a period of 37 years and demonstrates dedeication to the hobby and an interest in basic aerodynamics to ensure success, for which I feel all the more enriched.
I therefore feel the need to blow a raspberry at the 'A' cert and any other such schemes and the insistence that to join a club is the only way forward. This does not mean that you have an understanding of why your aeroplane acts in the way it does or that you possess any safe constructional skills. All it proves is that you can fly in a predetermined manner and understand your BMFA handbook.............Prrrrrrrrp!

[nasa_steve]

deadstick

with all due respect i think you might have missed the point. i commend you on your persevereance in the way that you learnt to fly i'm sure though when you were learning you were not faced by a society that can be less than tolerant of anything that could be vaguely dangerous noisy or has the potential to annoy someone. in this day and age this is exactly what we are faced with now.think of the repercusions if some young lad flies his model through the next door neighbours pedegree hound. on the ARTF thing you probably did not have ARTF's when you started so building from scratch was your only choice. i would also challenge you to do what some of these youngsters SEEM to be able to do.with their flying ability
the fact that we have A cert and other such scheme's can only do good to promote someone to learn and push themselves to fly that little bit better it is a time proven course, to achieve a reasonable result plus of course you have all that experience to draw from.
construction skills are'nt everything you know, i can't build for toffee but i fly reasonably. so what difference is it that someone does not know why their aeroplane does what it does.
you seem to want to make it an elitest hobby where only those that follow your path are following the correct course. i used to work for a guy who had that approach, whilst he knew what he was doing and he was good at what he done, anyway but his way was the wrong way. funny guy if the end result is the same what difference does it make which route you take to achieve that goal.
we need to be that much more vigilant these days and the safest approach to this is through the club enviroment
nasa

[Dead-stick]

Nasa,
I am totaly against any sort of elitism and it was not my intention to infer that. You are correct in your assumption that I can't fly as well as some of the younger, or older, aerobatic pilots, but that's not my thing anyway. I do however object to being made to conform to anything I see, IMHO, as none value added, ergo I will not be taking any sort of test any time soon, or ever for that matter. And just for the record, I could if I wanted to, easily, I just choose not to. Isn't freedom of choice great!

[nasa_steve]

guy's
the point that i was trying to make is in this "i'll sue you" nanny cotton wool state it is very difficult to find somewhere safe and i mean where you are not going to hit some dog walker etc. to actually learn to fly in comfort and chances are without upsetting some miserable do gooder to boot. when you and i'm sure many of your generation did learn to fly it was a lot easier to find a quiet spot as such to do thy bidding without the problems we face today.
because we live in a society where anyone can sue anyone as such its a good idea to maybe even learn to fly in a club enviroment then go out and tear up the local beauty spot etc. the certificate situation is not a thing that is enforced but it goes to show that that person can fly with some competance. common sense is something that illudes quite a few people in this day and age so i think the club enviroment does strive to cover that base at least.
i've got no problem with the lone flyer as long as he has the good sense to check if others are using the area as well and that he's intelligent enough to be insured or if he's not he can afford to pay out if he or one of his aircraft hurts or damages something.
i have used an open site on quite a few occaisions and been absolutely gobsmacked by the lack of common sense and etiquette shown by some of the flyers on that site. at least if one learns through a club enviroment that person might learn some basics to stop him from hurting someone in the open field as such.
regards
nasa

[Martin McIntosh]

Back to the original subject, I once bought a Ripmax Soarus lecky glider, which flew well but was rubbish. I later bought a Limbo Dancer which cost a lot less than I could build one for, still flies very well with no structural or other problems but since it is covered in Solarfilm it was probably made in the UK! Most of the ARTF models I have seen at my local field have had undercarriage/covering problems and are not far short of being downright dangerous. Whilst ARTF has given model flying a great boost for people who do not otherwise have the skills/time to build, it is nearly killing off the supply of basic materials for us remaining designers/builders. Who, in the future, will still have the knowledge to even design your next ARTF?

[Aslan]

My tuppence worth.Safety is the main course here,no ifs or buts.The other thing is nowadays everything is available,ready to go, for the would be flyer,so we must accept this and encourage people to join a club.If one wants to be a flyer only,so be it.If a lad wants to take a more in depth approach to the hobby,so be it.I think it is great that people learned to fly themselves,honestly.But now it would be foolhardy to tell a beginer to just go to your nearest field and away you go.I don't think the certs should be forced on anyone either,but if the rule says you need it to fly here or there,and that's where you want to fly,then go get one.If you don't wanna fly there,don't bother with it.I don't have any.I fly on the club patch only,have me insurance and have loads of fun.And some massive company will design my next ARTF.And I can build 'cos I chose to learn.Some of me mates couldn't build a sandwich,but we all have a great time.Last words "Stamp out Modelism"

[The real Ron Truth]

Im kind of stuck between the 2 arguments here. I taught myself to fly largely as there were no club spaces available and because Im a stubborn sort of person who IMAGINED clubs to be run by over bearing , bossy people who would no doubt humiliate me for any reason. Hence why I avoided them.

Having now flown at 2 clubs and been involved in running a public site, I have seen so many people turn up, have a go, learn to fly and then go on to become very accomplished and enjoy it. I ve also seen a lot of people try and learn to fly the hard way at a public site and get very dejected simply because they frowned any help or didnt have a clue how to do anything. Remember learning to fly is not just about the flying bit but also the ground handling, aircraft set up and most importantly pit safety.This has to be learnt and is probably the biggest single problem at a public site. Ive seen people do the most stupid things simply as they dont know what they are doing.

If Im honest, the club way is so much better and more enjoyable for beginners. You get to speak to modellers and learn which model to buy to suit you ( not the local model shop), you can buy second hand, be tutored and hopefully avoid costly mistakes. Theyre not full of ogres but ful of genuine helpful folk who are only too keen to lend help and advice.
If I had know this from the start, I would have saved myself a lot of tears.

[Alistair Taylor]

Adam

I know what you mean. I joined a club initially, and learned the basics, including safety. The club members were very helpful, and I was tutored on a club trainer when my own trainer was...ahem...inoperational.

This club then lost its main flying field, and essentially most forms of power flying were no longer possible. So I flew small models in the local recreation ground (gliders, cox-powered rudder/elevator trainers). This got me through control reversal. Was it safe and legal? Mostly. I kept my BMFA membership going. The park was never crowded when I went flying. No children or cute fluffy animals were injured.

Nasa-Steve, you said you had no problem with a lone flier provided "he has the good sense to check if others are using the area as well and that he's intelligent enough to be insured".

Where I live I'm surrounded by RC clubs - the one I'm a member of that flys on Saturdays, the Heli club down the road that flys every other day, and clubs about 10 miles away in pretty much all directions.

With manufacturers having developed decent silencers for RC engines, it's now quite hard to detect power RC planes from less than a mile away (which is still within interference range), never mind gliders/electric! So what you're saying is that we're expecting someone who goes into a toy shop and buys a model plane (or who receives one as a gift) to;

1) - Realise he needs insurance (when it's not needed for most other toys that you'd fly in a park - e.g. kites - granted most other toys don't have a mini chainsaw engine on the front...but then you don't need insurance to buy and operate a chainsaw)
2) - Invest in a frequency monitor, or scan the skies for models with a pair of binoculars "just in case".

I don't think we can automatically assume that a novice will do this, even though it seems obvious to seasoned fliers.

ARTFs hold out the promise of easy access to the skies. I think the onus has to be on the manufacturers, sellers and distributors of these AND ALL OTHER RC PLANES to make it crystal clear that this access is not "free", but is heavily regulated. In my experience, most sellers do give out the details of local clubs, but RC kits don't come with a UK-specific "health warning" (can seriously damage your credit card....) to alert prospective fliers to the risks, and the regulatory framework that they are covered by.

Yes, Clubs do play a really important part in teaching people to fly, but they are not part of this regulation. Yes, they have to comply with BMFA regs in order to get insurance cover, but this is not the same. You can't blame clubs for the tuition available/not available.

Currently there are no laws specifically forbidding an individual from flying on their own. Do we want one? Or would this kill the hobby?

AlistairT

[Tony Jones]

I once watched a beginner trying to teach himself and his mates to fly in the local park with a so-called park flyer. It kept on crashing and all were getting more and more frustrated and about to literally jump on the model.
Against my better judgement I asked what the problem was to be told that the model was a rip off that just didn't fly. I tentatively asked if I could have a go as I'd done a little bit before. Reluctantly they agreed. After I'd sorted out the C.G, unjammed the elevator and straightened the left wing, it flew quite reasonably. They were, quote: gobsmacked.
They wanted to know how I had learned. I told them to call in at the local model shop (this thing had been bought on the internet) and ask about clubs.
I bet this scenario is being played out all over the country right now - in the majority of cases without the fortuitous intervention of an experienced modeller to save the day.
IMHO, this model was sold under false pretences and the advertising blurb 'Fly like a pro in half an hour' or some such, was totally misleading. Not good for the hobby - and potentially dangerous.
Cheers
Tony Jones.

[Alistair Taylor]

My wife saw something similar being acted out at the local park in Shepherd's Bush, a park frequented, sorry, crowded, with dog walkers, footballers, joggers.

People have been injured and killed by model planes. Currently the law does not prevent any Tom D or H buying a plane and flying it in his local park, provided this complies with the relevant Air Nav Order, and of course the police have plenty of time to check up on this.....

There's definitely a risk of tighter regulation of model planes being called for that has nothing to do with the "nanny state", but everything to do with the "sue 'em society".

The solution? Make sure your local club is actively pushed to novices at your local modelling emporium. The BMFA seems to be doing all it can with "before you fly your plane" advice. If you're a seller/distributor, you should already be linking to this.

AlistairT
PS - What was the topic again? Oh yeah - poorly made ARTFs. Frightening to think that someone going easy on the glue in China could scupper model flying for the rest of us.....

[Peter Miller]

Hey Folks go and look at this website for a good chuckle.
There is a "Tiger Moth" model, on ly trouble is that it is a Beech 17 "Stagger wing" Any biplane less like a Tiger Moth I have yet to see

[Tony Jones]

Alice Wong
I am not the moderator for this site but your post appears to be nothing more than a commercial advertisement. So I certainly won't be buying anything from you!
Peter
ROFLMAO!

[David Ashby - Moderator]

I've removed it Peter...and Alice Wong at the same time.

David

[Peter Miller]

David,

Pity, that was a good laugh but I did extract the...er... Michael in an email to Alice.

Tony
What the heck does ROFLMAO stand for? I am not into texting!

[Chris Collins]

Rolling On Floor, Laughing My Arse Off

[Peter Miller]

Chris thanks. You see, you learn something new every day

[Chris Collins]

IMHO, there are too many of these TBH! Some texts/messages are worst than cryptic crosswords trying to figure out what people are saying. Especially if you add my wifes spelling/texting ability into the equation lol.

IMHO - In My Humble Opinion
TBH - To Be Honest
LOL - Laugh Out Loud

Chris

[Peter Miller]

Just to date me, The last one I was really familiar with was ASAP.