Mersey police may be prosecuted over r/c drone

[Peter 'Ivanna Crashalot' Savage]

I would love it if it 'landed' in my back garden and miraculously disappeared :P

 

£40,000!!! a nice high quality camera! 

[Erfolg]

Pete

 

If I was intent on attacking the police I would have concentrated on the many recent instances where individuals within the police force have had difficulties. Some convicted of offences, some found not guilty, some where it was decided that there was no case to answer.

 

The use of these devices should be to add value to lives, not be a potential threat.

 

Helicopters although expensive can provide a remote surveillance service at a safe distance from people and property.

 

I certainly want criminals deterred  from undertaking crime and where crime has occurred brought to account.

 

In my opinion it is not a desirable situation where there are different sets of rules and regulations for different people. We can all think of scenarios where we think some unlawful action can be justified. The problem with this approach, none of us would be bound by law or self constraint.

 

In this case the police have admitted to operating a device in breach of regulations. Again there own publicity indicates that the device was operated in a way that apparently breached many CAA regulations. Relaxing regulations for the police is not a good solution.

 

Upholders of the law should be like Caesar's wife, not seeking exceptions, or not being treated equally under law (either way).

 

No, I am not against the police, but want a police force accountable to the people they serve, responsive to there needs. I do not see the police as perfect, and all the accountability's you describe as being no less than I would expect. I do not expect the police to break the Law or regulations, however justified some may see it.

 

 

If the police operate the devices as others appear to use them at a commercial level and other emergency services appear to use them, I would think there are no issues. If they continue as seen on TV and their reported operation, I will continue to be opposed.

 

Erfolg

Erfolg

[Pete B]

Thanks, Erfolg, I think we are in agreement that Merseyside have to do a little more homework on their project. I don't think there is any suggestion that regulations were relaxed for them - they just didn't comply with the recent changes, so far as I understand.

 

For embarrassment's sake alone, the police are normally very hot on getting the paperwork correct in-house so I've no doubt there will have been a few deep and meaningful conversations in the boss's office since.............

 

By way of example, in at least one Force, all office transistor radios have been banned in the light of the decision that a licence is required from the Performing Rights Society for 'public' broadcasting.........  

 

I will be very surprised if they are prosecuted - the CAA would probably see this as a minor infringement and no doubt have options as to remedial measures.

 

 

There is real concern regarding the future of some Police ASU's at present - many Authorities will be having to make very big budget cuts and the ASU's are an obvious target. There is already talk of Forces combining their assets and reducing the number of operational a/c.

 

This will inevitably make the use of UAV's, rather than full-size a/c, very attractive to the accountants, so we haven't seen the last of them. Aerial observation has proved its worth on countless occasions now and is an indispensable part of the police armoury, so they are going to have to deliver something in the near future.

 

Pete

[Peter 'Ivanna Crashalot' Savage]

I don't see why they don't, instead of spending all the money on a helicopter, use a UAV helicopter, controlled like a predator uav that would be an awesome job operating them!

[Ross Clarkson]

Peter,

 

A UAV replacing the Police ASU Helicopter's is a long way away (If ever) as they just can not complete the full range of job's that Police Helicopter's do!

 

I feel they do have a role to play in the future and once all the problems/teething problems/regulations and media stick has been solved and forgotten then they will be common place working hand in hand with ASU units.

 

 

[Clive Matthews]

Posted by Peter 'Servo Scrounger' Savage on 18/02/2010 19:28:53:

I would love it if it 'landed' in my back garden and miraculously disappeared :P

 

£40,000!!! a nice high quality camera! 

 But a twopence halfpenny down link that prevents them using 2.4Ghz RC!!!!???? The more I learn about FPV and video down link/RC interference problems, the more I feel that someone hasn't done their research properly.

I'm not particularly  worried about Police/Fire brigade etc. usage which will to some extent be under controlled conditions. What does worry me is the growth of FPV flying whilst incorporating these problems. On another thread on this forum, I read of an FPV beginner buying second hand 35Mhz equipment as he'd just discovered that his 2.4Ghz RC gear won't work with the FPV video link. Brushless drive trains and 35Mhz equipment have serious problems. Accidents are avoided because we fly within safe physical boundaries. It seems to me that FPV flyers will  (either consciously or otherwise) exceed these boundaries.

 

FPV flying is an interesting and worthwhile development of our hobby. I am not seeking to restrict it's growth. But there is a problem here. At best, people are buying hundreds of pounds of equipment, only to find that it won't work with 2.4Ghz radio gear! At worse and I am suggesting likely, a model loaded with expensive equipment, will crash outside of a safe boundary. 

[Romeo Whisky]

I emailed the BMFA for their response to this issue and here, quoted in full is the reply from Manny Williamson:-

"Thank you for your Email in relation to the Police use of UAV’s

We are well aware of this issue and have been in communication with the company that imports the equipment and supplies to the Police, they are now well aware of the pitfalls and legal implications of using 35MHz.

We also have a very close working relation ship with the CAA and have an input on any legislation that may have a bearing on model flying.

The recent changes to the Air Navigation Order were specifically aimed at Unmanned Air Vehicles or “drones” and does not include model aircraft.

The important distinction between the two is purpose of use, UAV’s are flown for “aerial work” and must operate under the terms of a CAA exemption from specific portions of the ANO whereas model aircraft are defined as “for sport and recreational purposes” and are bound by certain provisions of the ANO.

I hope this is of assistance"

Clearly the BMFA are wide awake to this and "on the case" on our behalf.

 

(Above verbatim quote by kind permission of Manny Williamson)

Edited By Romeo Whisky on 19/02/2010 09:20:12

[Lee Smalley]

lock them away and throw away the key !!! (what do you mean they have the keys!!)

[Erfolg]

The idea that these UVAs can be used to reduce police budgets, need in my opinion to be resisted. Why?, as this is an euphemism or political speak for staff reductions. As  they need to be seen in the context of supplementing/augmenting the police.

 

There may be an argument for the devices being operated by a no-police operative. Even here I am nervous, as it can be just another way as with  community officers to reduce cost, yet not providing a full police service, as many citizens want.

 

I still favour police helicopters, as they have a good loiter time, plus they are operated by pilots who can resist the adrenaline rush that many experience. Also the awareness of their environment should in most circumstances be higher, due to the visual scanning, elevated poisition etc.

 

If the police should be prosecuted for their apparent breach of regulations is another matter. It is not just that they have not applied for a licence in conjunction with a statement of operation (or what ever it is called). The more serious issue for me is the apparent lack of appreciation of safe deployment. Hopefully some one from the CAA will have at least a strong word with them, and encourage and require a process of awareness of both regulations, how they are to be interpreted and implemented safely.

 

I still suspect that Quinteqs comments could be cause for concern. As their argument centres around the commercial development being undertaken under the cloak of the Hobbyist. In searching for a tight definition of what is a hobbyist and is permissible for Hobbyists, the result could be restrictions that will adversely affect us. As I stated, I doubt  it is us that they are after (in fact pretty much certain it is not us), but could become the victims of an organisation endeavouring to protect and limit competition from potential rivals. It is a legitimate objective for any business, as their aim is to make money, and reduce threats to that end.

[Clive Matthews]

 

'But there is a problem here. At best, people are buying hundreds of pounds of equipment, only to find that it won't work with 2.4Ghz radio gear! At worse and I am suggesting likely, a model loaded with expensive equipment, will crash outside of a safe boundary.' 

 I have been reminded today that the AR Drone quadrocopter manages to operate it's controls and video down link all on 2.4GHz! 

[Ross Clarkson]

Erfolg,

 

For arguments sake, if all the niggles and legislation was sorted out, would you not prefer a UAV sitting over a Football Stadium for hours or carrying out a massive rural area search for a missing person rather than a Police Helicopter? Peanuts an hour compared to about £1k an hour and leaving the Police Helicopter to concentrate on Crime!

[Clive Matthews]

Ross, I think that you may have mis-understood the capabilities of such aircraft. The duration will be minutes not hours and the range yards not miles.

[Erfolg]

Ross

 

I personally would have reservations regarding a UAV over a stadium. There must be far better ways of observing what ever, which are safer.

 

Now with respect to the aerial search of an open space, in principal that is where the UAV probably comes into its own. This would depend on the sensors it could be equipped with. If several could be deployed the concept could really work. I suspect that they have limited duration, which possibly would require power pack changes etc, but a very manageable and controlled usage.

 

The open space use is broadly similar to that we modellers, are familiar with, where dangers and risk management can be successfully implemented.To a more limited extent, a static situation could also be assessed, although the management of risks are different. Where as we modellers, by and large try to avoid the public, property and roads, the stadium scenario is similar to a airshow, but without the clear safe airspace, relative to the crowd and property etc.

 

The scenario which causes me concern, is the hot pursuit of persons through the urban area, where assessments cannot be preplanned, possibly at night, possibly in the rain, wind etc. Here I much prefer the helicopter at the moment, with a disciplined operative (the pilot), the guys pumped up on the chase being the observers and guys on the ground.

 

Erfolg

[Ernie]

Hi Guys,

What is essentially a RC helicopter hovering over a sports stadium is plain daft.

Is there anyone out there who has not crashed a model plane, and don't give the argument that they are very sophisticated. That just means more to go wrong.

Would any responsible club allow a RC helicopter to hover over the pits

 

ernie

[Peter 'Ivanna Crashalot' Savage]

Would it be any different than a full size helicopter? it would do less damage in an engine failure

[Ernie]

Yes Peter,

Full size helicopters, seldom fail.

RC ones often do

 

ernie 

[Ross Clarkson]

I didn't mean the one Merseyside are using, i meant if things developed properly and a reliable UAV with good endurance was adapted.

Like ones used in Iraq/Afghanistan. (Obviously not as expensive but along those lines)

 

Erfolg, i dont think UAV's will ever be used for hot pursuits as you say, these incidents are just too dynamic for them to cope with and i agree with you.

 

What about unmanned Blimps at stadiums?

[Clive Matthews]

http://www.tetheredblimp.com/

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Far more sensible in that situation.  I wonder how happy Liverpool FC or their opponents would be knowing a small aircraft or a full sized helicopter was hovering over tens or even hundreds of million pounds worth of assets (players). 

[Clive Matthews]

The tethered blimp is not a problem free solution. They cannot be used in anything stronger than a moderate breeze as tethering cables have been known to break. They also need quite a bit of ground space (probably not at Anfield then Martin). However, at major sporting events, the TV OB company may well have one already in place. They are also self financing due to the advertising sponsorship.

 

All that would be needed would be an extra camera for sole use of the authority and down link. The equipment carried is essentially the same 'helicam' gyro stabilised gear already available to the police and broadcasters.

Edited By Clive Matthews on 19/02/2010 21:06:47

[Peter 'Ivanna Crashalot' Savage]

If you were to maintain an rc helicopter like you did with a full size, it would have the same possibility of failing, but the average modeller is not going to perform servicing every day it is used (well a quick check over before flying)

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I think you'll find metallurgy, design, quality control and monitored component life/inspection procedures would have a little more to do with reliability, Peter as well as designed in redundancy and on board systems monitoring through instrumentation, feel and hearing.

Edited By Martin Harris on 20/02/2010 00:58:24

[Peter 'Ivanna Crashalot' Savage]

well they wouldn't use an off the shelf heli anyway would they?

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I doubt that the £40 000 cost quoted (fully equipped) for a dedicated system buys the same standard of design and construction that a helicopter costing two or three millions would. The whole point of the exercise is to reduce costs dramatically.

[Peter 'Ivanna Crashalot' Savage]

Speaking of police helicopters, our one just flew over my house, with £10 notes coming out the exhaust!