Taking Off And Landing

[Stephen Grigg]

Our Club allows us to stand where we want to to Take Off an Land.Partly its probably because we have to cross the strip to get to the pits anyway,so people are often shouting Crossin anyway.But one member  is always criticising me every time we fly together.The way I take off is I give myself the full take off distance so from the end of the strip.I stand behind the model and check the controls are all working correctly.I then check where evey one is ,I shout taking off and do just that,I can clearly see which direction my model is going and correct it accordingly.He insists I should taxi my model to the take off position and take off from the pilots box thus not having to walk and trip up whilst flying.I explain that I like to steer my model and feel more comfortable doing it this way and in fact most other members do the same,any opinions

Edited By Tim Mackey - Administrator on 19/08/2010 09:27:42

[Aslan]

Yep..... Take off standing behind model Stephen and land from pilots area. Then when you land..... beat him severely around the head,neck and upper torso. Cross the strip to get to the pitts??????? 

[Garry Pollard]

Why dont you have the pits on the other side of the strip Stephen, then you would not have to cross. Is that not possible?  Give us a sketch of the area and we will redesign it for you LOL. Is the rollerking you are getting from our mutual friend I wonder?

Garry

[GONZO]

BMFA HANDBOOK, page22 'site layout'; page58 & 59 'Achievement scheme- fixed wing'

Note that the pilot is positioned mid runway. If at the end of the runway and taking off away from you you are in the 'line of fire' if some one should need to land.

[Bruce Richards]

I almost always stand in the pilots box, or close by, for take off and landing. For hand launch I will stand out on the patch to launch into wind. I think it is good practice to be able to control your model while standing to the side.

 

No criticism   intended just how I do it.

[David perry 1]

Stephen,

Alas theres at least one at every club.  The one at mine managed to put up fences, markers for the box, warning signs in the pits etc etc.  I drew the line at cones on the runway and kicked them off. Theyve gone now.  Most recently he directly caused the crash and destruction of my sons A10.  We have to live with these people unfortunately.

 

Of course, you should be ABLE to taxi and fly the plane from anywhere, and I am sure you can, but what you choose to do is entirely up to you.

 

Next time he has a go at you tell him that his shouting / ranting is now placing you under stress and putting the model at risk. It is illegal for anyone to cause damage to a plane or to endanger a plane in flight so tell him that you are considering reporting him to the CAA as is required under the ANO.   Thats what I did to our one. Just the threat.  Show him you take it seriously.  Do you have a club committee? Report it to them in similar words.

 

These people really cheese me off.  You fly how you like Stephen, its your hobby too.

 

D 

 

ps whatever you end up doing, never stop those control checks! 

[Garry Pollard]

Surely That is the reason pilot should stand together so they can communicate. I must admit when I am on me own at the airfield I tend to do as I want and take off as Stephen does and stand at the side of the runway to fly, but when in a group I take off and land from the pilot box as our rules state

Garry

[Ultymate]

Sorry to disagree with you Stephen but in my view an experienced pilot should be able to take off across his line of vision without any problems. I know we all start off standing behind the model at take off as this makes steering (rudder control) far easier, but this then becomes one of those comfort zones that we feel uncomfortable to step outside. I would certainly expect a "B" qualified pilot to have this skill mastered. One other point it's my view that the pilot taking off should ask any pilots already flying for permission to take off not simply announce that he's taking off and do so.

[David perry 1]

Ultymate,

 

You're right, but Stephen says most other members do the same as him, so there seems to be a looser regime at his club than at some "model Heathrow" clubs.  It may be that there's just this one character who's trying to impose the hi-viz jacket culture.

 

Personally I think taking off across your own line of sight is safer than standing behind it,  as you get a better perspective.

 

 

Stephen doesn't say whether he has a B or not.

 

Out of interest Stephen, where do you stand for landing?  I guess you land across yourself presumbly (rather than ducking!). 

 

D 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I tend to agree with your "friend" that it's much better practice to taxi out and take off from the side and have been teaching people to do it that way from scratch for some time.  There are hazards involved when people walk out to take off which are entirely avoidable by staying in the pilot's box. Having said this, we have people who can fly competently but prefer to stand behind the model and we accept this within the club.

 

Although exponents of the standing behind method say it makes it easier for them, by and large, they seem to be the ones who are weakest on rudder control and they often seem to take off in whatever direction the model happens to go in - perhaps standing behind the model gives them the comfort factor that the one place the model will not go is in their own direction?  Maybe that's a bit of an unfair generalisation though if it's just that someone was taught that way...

 

Standing at the side allows you to balance a taildragger on its wheels properly and judge the initial climb out angle properly.  It may be co-incicence but the majority of badly controlled, hanging on the stall type take off "adventures" that I witness seem to be from pilots standing behind.

 

Finally, some people claim it's difficult to assess the take-off direction from the side - but since when did anyone go to the end of the runway to do a landing approach?  Most people seem to cope OK from the pilot's box!

 

It might interest you to know that there is a strong proposal to make taking off from the pilot's box a part of the A test which I believe is likely to be adopted soon.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

WOW - I started composing the above when there was one reply - admittedly I was interrupted but I was gobsmacked when I saw how many posts there were!

[Ultymate]

I think in the "average" club, if there is such a thing, you get a mix of abilities but as a club instructor once trainees of mine are at "A" standard I try to encourage them to  taxi a lot and progress toward standing in the "flight box" and taking off across there line of vision. I just a see it as one of those skills that put the final polish on a pilots abilities. That said it's a hobby and would not try to force this on everyone, no high vis waistcoat for me 

[John Privett]

I take off (and obviously land) standing in the pilots' box and think that's the preferred, safer option.  Initially, if people need to stand behind the model then OK,  but I do think they should be aiming to progress to taking off from the side.  Steering is marginally more difficult to judge,  but speed and angle of climb are correspondingly easier to evaluate when watching from the side.  And reducing the number of people wandering onto the strip has to be a good thing - especially if they haven't heard the "deadstick - landing" call and the deadstick pilot hasn't looked properly and seen them walking out...

 

I'm intrigued though by your description Stephen, of having to cross the strip to get to the pits!  Are you saying you have the pits and pilots' box on opposite sides of the strip?  I'm sure I must have mis-interpreted that, as that layout sounds blummin' dangerous and against one of the strongest recommendations in the BMFA handbook;

 

(q) Under no circumstances whatsoever should
you move to the far side of the flying area so that
you can land your model between yourself and the

pits area.

I hope I've misunderstood what you said Stephen!

[David Turner 5]

Do whatever you are comfortable with.

 

The safest place to be is behind the model. I've yet to see anyone be struck by a model which is going away from him.

 

My own preference, for landing, is to stand near to the threshold. That makes it easier to nail the landing. Secondly, it's been my experience that most loss of control occurs after the initial touchdown ... the model bounces or squirrels. Have the model touch down near the threshold and then run beyond you.

 

IMO, the most dumb-ass place to put a pilot's box is "somewhere near the middle of the runway." It should be at the threshold.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

My initial reaction reading David's post was to dismiss it out of hand - after all, the BMFA recommends the pilot's box in the middle of the runway and most videos I've seen from around the world mirror this practice but then I started to think about it and perhaps he does have a point.

 

I've seen plenty of pilots carry on with take-offs when they are pointing at the other pilots in the pilot box and standing behind the model - most seem to abort earlier if it's coming at themselves!  I've always taken this as a positive benefit of taking off whilst standing in the pilot's box.

  

Why do we do it this way?  Is it just for practicality - have a direct route from the pits to a position in the middle which is useable in at least 2 wind directions?  I suppose the other drawback is that a pilot going to or leaving the pilot's box at the threshold is then exposed to danger unless all low level activity is suspended whilst they are in transit unless at a very large site where a route could be taken well clear of the runway.

Edited By Martin Harris on 19/08/2010 11:32:40

[Josip Vrandecic -Mes]

Hi Stephen !

Although I'm an old dog,but I accepted Martin Bedding's advice : RCM&E, May 2009,R/C TECHNIQUE / Feature...."The correct procedure for take off  /  landing-the model on the runway with the pilot standing in the pilot box to one side..........."  etc.

[Tim Mackey]

Posted by David Turner 5 on 19/08/2010 11:04:43:

Do whatever you are comfortable with.

 

The safest place to be is behind the model. I've yet to see anyone be struck by a model which is going away from him.

 

My own preference, for landing, is to stand near to the threshold. That makes it easier to nail the landing. Secondly, it's been my experience that most loss of control occurs after the initial touchdown ... the model bounces or squirrels. Have the model touch down near the threshold and then run beyond you.

 

IMO, the most dumb-ass place to put a pilot's box is "somewhere near the middle of the runway." It should be at the threshold.

 

But that assumes that the wind direction is constant - sometimes the wind is from the left, and sometimes the right.  Moving threshold surely?

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Timbo, I'd guess you're not used to pilots standing in front of you at the Big Rock? 

Edited By Martin Harris on 19/08/2010 11:58:08

[John Privett]

I agree (on this occasion!) with David.  At my club we have two pilots' boxes marked out - one at either end of the strip, and we use the one at the downwind end. 

[Ultymate]

We recently experimented with a centre strip pilots box at the Rhyl club but had several near miss experiences with the less experienced pilots taking off towards the other flying pilots. We have now reverted to pilots standing at or close to the downwind threshold.

 

P.S. any pilot standing in front of TImbo at the "Rock " is likely to have is aerial circumcised in real short order   

[Chris Bell]

Thats why we do it Martin

 

You're always half way down the runway - mind our strip is some 300 mtrs long so there are very few models that go to the end of the runway to start a takeoff run.

 

Most taxi out to the middle of the strip turn left or right and take off. The LMA boys who use the runnway quite a bit seem happy enough with it...

 

I have to say i'm never overly happy if someone walks into the middle of the runway to take off .

 

Dont really have a problem with it as such - just dont like people hanging around on the runway then walking/tripping their way back to the pilots box while the model is in the air. If someone has a deadstick for example - they then have much more limited options.

 

Chris

[John Privett]

300m...  That's not a runway,  that's a county!

 

From your description it's almost like you've got two runways of 150m,  with the threshold for each one in front of the pilots.  Our strip is only 60m so we're rather more likely to use the full length than you - though we can't fly anything over 7kg. (byelaw restriction.)

[Lee Smalley]

we have two runways newbies generally stand behind the aircraft for take off but we doencourage them to learn to stand to one side for take off some learn it some never do!  our pilot box is midway of the landing strip on both runways and is about 5 meters back from the strip for landing and take off you step forward to the edge of the strip and as soonas you are airborne you stand back in the pilots box area 5 meters back,

 

why is this bonkers i find the idea of standing at either end of the runway even more bonkers we have a 100 meters to land in why would i want to land in the first 5!

standing in the middle gives you a half decent perspective of both the front and the back of the strip so you are less likely to run off either if you need to stand at the front to nail a landing then you need to practice your landings!  IMO

Edited By Lee Smalley on 19/08/2010 13:19:42

[Tony Smith 7]

I find this an interesting discussion, as someone who's never even seen a typical club airfield operation.    How does this square with the beginners' advice given earlier to stay upwind, and not allow the model to fly downwind of your position?   Surely to do that you need to have the pilot standing downwind of the threshold.   With the pilot standing at the threshold then the last part of the circuit is flown on the downwind side of the pilot.

[Tim Mackey]

Posted by Ultymate on 19/08/2010 12:17:56:

We recently experimented with a centre strip pilots box at the Rhyl club but had several near miss experiences with the less experienced pilots taking off towards the other flying pilots. We have now reverted to pilots standing at or close to the downwind threshold.

 

P.S. any pilot standing in front of TImbo at the "Rock " is likely to have is aerial circumcised in real short order   

 LOL -  anywhere in the vicinity is at risk