Pick a Plane 2011 - chat and FW-190 build

[Clive Kerr]

 Reg Kiwi g , again. The Tiger Moth did not bomb Berlin, nor shoot down hoards of the Luftwaffe, but it certainly trained lots that did, like the Magister. The Tiger Moth seems to be regarded as an historic aeroplane by most with a knowledge of aviation history.

 

Quoting Kiwi g " Or was it only an aircraft you use to lust after as a kid as you watched some pilot learning to fly." Please, can we not make silly personal remarks like that.

 

This chat room is for airing opinions on a vote for an aeroplane we would like to see designed by Tony Nijhuis, not for armchair psycho-analysis of those with  different opinions.

 

Alula, a Horten with a rocket in it certainly would fly past the Magisters ( spelling ! ), most likely just once.

[Erfolg]

This thread is not really progressing.

 

Some are wedded to their own prejudices, and favourite from which they will never retreat, pouring scorn on others. Oh, is that me!

 

It cannot be long before the debate moves forward in a useful way as TN and GA redefine the criteria on which the decision will be made. Or even just use executive power.

 

Will I be happy is the big question, how many will be happy and for how long? Will wallets open? Will building boards be cleared. Yes that is the answer to the  ultimate question. It is not 42 or 101010.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Erfolg on 17/01/2011 15:14:40:

 Yes that is the answer to the  ultimate question. It is not 42 or 101010.

 

There are 10 types of people in the world - those that understand binary and those that don't!

 

BEB

[Eck]

What are the other 8 types?

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I agree with you Erfolg, the debate, when it comes down to

 

"I want this, and I'm not really even prepared to discuss the pros and cons of anything else - if fact all other proposals are rubbish and my mission in life is convince everyone else of that simple fact"

 

is pretty pointless!

 

I think some folks are forgetting that this isn't really a simple "vote". TN doesn't have to pick the most popular - he doesn't even have to pick from amongst the most popular. All we are doing is "throwing suggestions into the pot". True - the more people that vote for a particular model it might indicate that a plan of that will sell well - but it might not.

 

I think the thread would progress better if folks spent less time telling us what was wrong with other people's suggestions and bit more telling us what so good about the ones they have proposed!

 

BEB

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Eck on 17/01/2011 15:57:09:
What are the other 8 types?

 

Mmmmm!?

 

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 17/01/2011 16:05:54

[Papa]

I agree with BEB and ERFOLG. The reason I suggested the Vulcan some time back was that I would love to see TN explore the new developments of EDF's. It would be an impressive model, relatively easy to build, the way TN designs, and would be reliable. Think of the sound of four 70mm EDF's tearing down your patch.

 

it would tick all my boxes and then some.

 

Jack Higgins.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Now I wouldn't have gone for that Papa - but I can see where your coming from. It could almost convert me - I love the Vulcan, but I've not got any experience with EDF's. Also might be a bit quick for me at my time of life! But I can see the attraction - and I can imagine my reaction....oh, dither, dither - should I do that, no, yes, definatley no. Oh go on then!

 

BEB

[Steve W-O]

Posted by Erfolg on 17/01/2011 15:14:40:

This thread is not really progressing.

 

 

 

It's been like that for a good few weeks now, but good to point it out for those who have not recognised it.

 

 

The stage has now been reached where I couldn't really care what the selection is, and the possibility of building whatever it is approaches 0 rapidly.

 

The only way any of my interest can be revived would be if we were given a list of possibilities to discuss and decide between, so that there can be some sensible discussion on the merits of the planes on the list.

 

That list can really only come from TN

[Papa]

BEB that was my point. If TN sorted out an EDF setup then a lot of folks would go for it knowing it has all the kinks worked out. Regardless of your time of life a Vulcan will never be too fast.

 

Papa.

[Clive Kerr]

 

 

  "

I think the thread would progress better if folks spent less time telling us what was wrong with other people's suggestions and bit more telling us what so good about the ones they have proposed!  "

 

I thought that is what I have been doing !  

 

Anyway, EDF Vulcan : I wonder whether the air-intakes feeding to one fan in the fuselage, then bi-furcating to the jet pipes, a bit like like in the Sea-Hawk, would be simpler than 4 fans ?

Or would the geometry of it all be too much of a headache  !

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Papa]

Four is what I had in mind. Simple, four tubes. Have you seen a HABU in flight? Four of those units would move a larger model with ease, I think and the sound would be great.

 

Papa

[Clive Kerr]

 

  These EDFs are all fun,  easy to assemble, and easy to fly :

 

Phase 3 F.16

 

Starmax He 162

 

Starmax Skyray.

 

They look and sound great !     

[Hugh Coleman]

I am constantly amazed by the scale subjects that get included in the normal monthly issues.

Look at this newest issue for instance.  Who'd have imagined that we would get a Blohm and Voss BV 215 to play with?  And the Stranraer (sic) in last months...  That's one off my list, although I was looking for 80" or so with built up structure  (but there is already one of them as well...)

 

We suggest subjects for Tony not because we want to see our favourite subject on paper (most of them already are), but because we want those subjects to be given Tony's particular brand of treatment.

 

So, let's all settle down hey.  Your favourite subject already exists as a builders plan in some form or another. 

The masses have spoken and (at this stage of the voting) they want Tony to do what he does best.  A warbird.

 

Cheers,

 

Hugh

Edited By Hugh Coleman on 17/01/2011 20:01:02

[Terence Lynock]

In many ways reading through this thread it appears that everyone is sitting around waiting and hoping Tony  designs a model aircraft  that they want to build, if there is a specific aircraft you are interested in then get out there and find the plans for it.

My main interest is in German twins so when I wanted plans for a Ta154 I didnt wait around for someone to draw them, the same goes for the Arado 240 for which I hunted for plans for two years, I found them eventually so it goes to show there are plans for practically every airplane built if you look long enough and hard enough.

When all else fails buy a draughtsmans drawing board for around £30 off Ebay and draw your own plans from a 3 view, it isnt as hard as it sounds because all the neccessary parameters are there, you just look at model construction for a simular plane and copy it,

sim-ples!

[Tony Richardson]

Posted by Tony Richardson on 16/01/2011 18:00:02:
82" Clive you are a man after my own heart, I did not think you liked em so big.   If I remember correctly the Magister was suggested as a very good first scale project by the scale scribe in R.C.M.&.E. a few years back due to its relatively simple construction and unfussy lines I see your point as a free plan,  but, I still would really like to see a Westland Whirlwind as there really is not a reasonable built up plan for an IC version around 65-70" and I am sure Tony's design would be suitable for a wide range of builders.

 As I said Tony's design will be suitable for a wide range of builders, the usual plan pack and other extras make it even easier;  look at the Lysander, not an easy model to design but Tony did it in a very short time and made it easier than a lot of other plans to build from, thanks Tony for the long night's and dedication to the reader's.    I am sure that whatever is chosen will it will be designed with speed and ease of construction in mind, will I build it, depends, being an odd duck and liking strange/different aircraft  I have a set of plans for the Jan issue ARCHAEOPTERYX feature winging ( excuse the pun ) their way across the Atlantic, should be a little different at the field 

[alula]

Posted by Clive Kerr on 17/01/2011 19:07:07:

 

  These EDFs are all fun,  easy to assemble, and easy to fly :

 

Phase 3 F.16

 

Starmax He 162

 

Starmax Skyray.

 

They look and sound great !     

 

 Now theres a change of heart.. all warbirds

And note all foam arfs . nice

Edited By alula on 18/01/2011 05:03:04

[Clive Kerr]

 Alula,

 

  I still support my initial choices for the vote,: Miles 18, Miles M.20, and P.56 Provost,   

  because of their simplicity, but it is clear they won't win.  

 

  I am still allowed to enjoy flying  models from different eras, or warbirds !      

[Erfolg]

Strange, an image of a prototype WW2 German jet appeared in my in tray, yet does not appear on the thread.

 

I can see the attraction, at many levels of a DF, as they seldom seem to appear as plans, yet i have seen a fair number at the flying field. All are electric.

 

It does appear that not all ARTFs are equal. Some seem to be far better at launch than others. Being an ex-engineer, I do view models from that aspect. On that basis although there are full size aircraft which I think look great, I have reservations. Yet they are modelled, often it said successfully, although i do raise an eyebrow when I read of the unfortunate demise, what ever the reason.

 

On that basis I remove from my list anything with very short tip chord compared to the root chord (other than deltas), very small wing area relative to body weight/volume, short nose length compared to tail length etc.

 

It is the same with any perspective DF. Models with long inlet and or outlet ducts, as cheat holes are probably a should have. This moves my attention to early jets or commercial aircraft with podded jet engines. Later jets having engines which had grown considerably in length as the compressor stages and Compression Ratio had increased etc.

 

On that basis, the doable would be, DH venom, He 162, Saab 21r,   HP 115, although the Douglas Skyray type model should work well (being a forgiving delta?), there will be many more. A single motored DF is practical start for most, a double DF reduces the potential for me greatly, any more fans, such as 4, would be a dream, that I personally would never realise.

[Papa]

Good afternoon ERFOLG. I'm curious regarding your last sentence above. Could you expand on why you would not consider 4 DF's. even using name brands the cost is not too bad and it's even less if you use Hong Kong knockoffs. The E-flight 69mm unit gets 2.8lbs of thrust on a 4s battery. 4 would power a pretty big Vulcan B2 with lots of margin. The new electric retracts are just begging for something like this.

 

Papa.

[Erfolg]

I do like simplicity, particularly in a system.

 

If we take a multi of 4 EDF's, I would need 4 ESC's, I would need to wire to each motor, the wiring to the battery or batteries, dependant on how things were done.

 

There would also the issue of how I would control the motors at the Tx end. Perhaps paired on the two outer and two inners. Which channels would or should be used?

 

The structural requirements of the fan ducts relative to the wing. The ducting itself, would for me involve a significant amount of work.

 

Although multis of any type are often very attractive as aircraft, Particularly the HP Victor, Lockheed Constellation, and again a never ending list, for me it is just to much. I do suspect it would be the same for many others.

 

That is before moving onto the cost.

[Tony Nijhuis]

My ears are burning.......Vulcan....I have just completed the final touches to my Vulcan plan for a pair of 90mm EDFs....only took 2-years to design but a new year and new inspiration (plus a lovely pair of 90mm ali 7-braded units on their way ) has got the model to the building stage.....

[Clive Kerr]

   That will please a lot of people, looking  forward to seeing it.

   In the meantime , a fantastic photo of the prototypes,from 1953....... !

      

 

 

 

 

 

     

[Tony Richardson]

Nice pic Clive,  only ever saw a Vulcan once  many years ago, it visited Winnipeg Canada looked like a big moth floating gently around the sky most impressive.

 

Tony I await the plan/plane with interest, electrickery is not my first choice but for a ducted fan it is most likely the best unless of course you make it big enough for a turbine alas I do not think my budget would allow for that, "oh well"

[kiwi g]

Tony can you use the plan youve just done or would you have to double up if vulcan was chosen.... Or would you even pick the vulcan after spending two years designing and building the last one.

Nice aircraft the vulcan . they even made it to NZ I believe ?

I like the flying wing style of jet , some will correct me that its a delta or something no doubt.

One should fly nice with the correct power etc,not even to hard for the average flyer.

May be an issue if a choice of IC or electric was needed tho.