heinkel Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hello,been trying to solder the undercarrige on my Flair SE5A but cannot get the solder to stick to the steel axel.Have been using bog standard solder is this correct i have never soldered anything before help needed many thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 9 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 You have the wrong solder sorry. This needs to be silver soldered. It is something I have not tried but I also need to learn. Hopefully an expert will be along soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 OK Heinkel, check out You Tube - lots of good soldering instructional videos there. In the meantime a couple of pointers; 1. In soldering cleanliness is truely next to Godliness! Both surfaces to be soldered must be absolutely clean. Rub them with some emery cloth or similar, and wipe off with a clean cloth. 2. You really need a good flux - don't depend on the flux inside the solder. Lots of different types available - personally I use 9% phosphoric acid. Coat both surfaces with this - liberally. 3. Heat - the other essential. And for an undercarriage lots of it. What wattage is your iron? Its going to need to be 75-100W to solder a typical undercarriage. Apply the heat to the job - not the solder. The work itself needs to be hot enough that the solder melts when it touches the workpiece - not the iron. Apply the heat from one side (say underneath) and the solder from on top. If you have enough heat the solder will whet the surface and "flash" into the joint - you'll recognise this instantly the first time you make it happen. If the solder just "sits there" then either the work isn't hot enough or clean enough (or both!) 4. Is this smallish undercarriage? If its larger (say 40 size model upwards) then bind the joints with wire before you solder them - I use heavy gauge fuse wire. The solder should then flow all round the joint and in through and around the wire. You can use ordinary solder for this - but silver solder is better if you can. 5. If the undercarriage is very big (90 size model or bigger) you will really need a small propane torch not a soldering iron. But that's another story! Hope this is helpful. BEB PS If you have used an acid flux don't forget to rinse the component under lots of cold running water afterwards - when its cooled down. Otherwise it will corrode faster than you think! Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 10/01/2011 21:20:48 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 9 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 looks like you may not need silver solder after all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hi Phil, silver solder is definitely better - but for smaller and even mdeium sized models, if you bind the joints, its not essential. A higher melting point solder will do. Ordinary cheap "electronics" type resin cored solder wont really do. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Bennett Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I soldered my SE5A and my Magnatilla undercarriages using ordinary electronics type resin cored solder, and they've survived for years. The key to it, as Biggles' Elder Brother has pointed out, is cleaning the wires to be joined, using emery paper or a fine file, applying flux paste, and then tinning them (i.e. heat them up with the iron and apply solder so that it forms a thin continuous coating) before joining them. I use 10- or 15-amp fuse wire, or 24g or 26g tinned copper wire, to wrap and secure the tinned pieces before applying the iron and more solder to complete the joint. A soldering iron with a large tip and plenty of watts (I've done it with 40 watts, but it's easier with 100!) is essential for a good, quick, job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I have used Wickes Active Flux Paste for years. It is ideal for soldering steel, with any soft solder. It is best to wipe the joint afterwards with a wet rag to remove any excess. You don't need to put much on. If you don't want the bother of binding the joint with wire, you can use a piece of sheet steel bent round the join. I use a 50W iron for most jobs. Bert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Yeah, you can use a lower wattage iron - I have even done it with 40W like Allan. But its a lot easier, especially for a beginner, with hotter iron! Choice of flux is one of those personal thing isn't it? Everyone has their persnal favourite brand. Its a case of what you get used to I think. I don't like paste fluxes and can't get on with them some how - but that's purely an individual thing, as Bert says he, like a lot of others, use them with great sucess. The important thing is to use a separate flux - whatever type floats your boat! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal brewer Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Regarding the posts on soldering,I agree with practically all that has been said,with one exception.I remember reading not to use emery cloth for cleaning the joint prior to soldering,as it's supposed to leave some residue that doesn't take solder too well,and I must admit I have trouble soldering when emery cloth has been used .You should always use wire-wool,or glass-paper (sandpaper) for a clean joint.Also,although silver-solder gives a vastly stronger joint,it does tend to 'de-temper' the piano wire,and leave it somewhat soft. As an aside,I also use soldering fluid(i.e. acid based liquid),and last time I bought some,the shop said he no longer sold it,due to lack of demand,when pressed,he disappeared into his stores,and eventually re-appeared with a dust-covered 5 litre container of Baker's fluid,which had been there so long he had forgotten about it ! i suppose I've got enough to last me a little while now.......................Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I have one of those Eric - a Weller. Not cheap but a smashing bit of kit , I've had it for years- really heats the job up quick. On the Emery Cloth - I can only say I've always used it and never had a problem - but then again as I've said I also use a liquid acid flux - that shifts anything! Perhaps that's why I don't get on so well with less aggresive paste type flux? Mmmm, must try that. Nah, stick with what you know BEB, if it ain't broke etc. BEBEdited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/01/2011 14:46:21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tee Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Plumbers now use cleaning strips made from a coarse grade emery type mesh strip that leaves little dust on the clean surface, when necessary but also use "self cleaning" acid type flux paste on your averagely dirty pipe surface with good results. if not wiped with a wet cloth after the joint goes a lovely shade of green or blue. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 There is no need to clean the surfaces to be joined when using Wickes active soldering paste. Just apply some of the paste, solder the joint and give it a wipe with a wet cloth. Bert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo565 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Heinkel, The Weasel says ( Come down and see me sometime ) and we'll show you how to do it. Take heed of the advise form these guys. Be wary of the king of NE 1 Jim & Weasel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heinkel Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 Thanks everyone for the advice, much appreciated. A freind of mine has helped me,would have been tough without the help from you all. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Glad you got there Heinkel - another skill learnt! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Lynock Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 The one thing that causes most annoyance with soldering is not enough heat, make sure your iron is up to the job as even if you manage to melt enough of the solder you will probably end up with a dry joint. Antex make good irons and do one for tabbing on solar panels, it has an 80 watt output and a big fat tip that holds a lot of heat, I use an Antex work station 'liberated' many years ago from Tatung when they closed their Bridgnorth factory, just fitted it with a new Antex 18 watt iron with an iron plated tip and its just the job for model making work. Cheap irons are usually a waste of time and money, put your pennies into something that will do the job and last a few years and also save an aweful lot of frustration when you need that bit of extra heat and havnt got it.Edited By Terence Lynock on 15/01/2011 18:18:55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Channon Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Hi all, when i am soldering up an undercarriage i use one of those trigger start miniture heat torches, this seems to work really well, some of them even come with a soldering attachment that works well with silver solder. regards, Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 That's worth knowing Chris. Do you know of any make in particular that comes with the soldering attachment? BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozmyk Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I've been soldering all my working life, electrical, and I've just learned from Ton van Munsteren on here that you can solder to piano wire (steel) with regular 60/40 lead/tin solder as long as you have the right flux. Ton's Beaufighter Thread - Soldering U'carriage I can't find the S39 he uses in Holland over here but I've bought some LaCo and some GoSystem flux to give it a try. BTW cheap butane pencil torches can be useful for soldering too.I use one on bullet connectors; gives a cleaner finish than using the iron, especially for EC3s where a smear on the outside of the bullet can interfere with the fit of shroud.Butane Pencil Torch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozmyk Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Sorry, something went wrong with Copy & Paste on my previous posting. The REAL Butane Pencil Torch link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Channon Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 08/02/2011 22:54:44: That's worth knowing Chris. Do you know of any make in particular that comes with the soldering attachment? BEB Hi BEB, i bought mine from Screwfix, it is a Bernz-o-matic one, about £20.00 i think. The one in Machine mart does not come with the soldering attachment. www.screwfix.co.uk regards Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Cheers Chris. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Jones Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Regarding Mal's point on silver soldering resulting in softening the piano wire. I seem to remember in those distance days at school that we were told that rapid cooling of steel hardens it up. If my recollection is right then would there be any benefit in chucking the assembly in a bucket of water once the solder has "set" but it's all still very hot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myron Beaumont Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Ian You are of course correct about ..plunging in water (or oil)but only at much higher temperatures (red heat and above) but proper piano wire is cold drawn which gives it it 's particular physical properties ie For piano strings that are never bent by the average pianist Edited By Myron Beaumont on 11/02/2011 19:49:25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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