Plummet Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Why don't birds need a tail fin? Of course, I only want serious answers, but expect otherwise! Plummet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Johnston Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 'He's havin' a go at the birds now...'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Skilbeck Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 If you watch them carefully you'll see they have an all moving tail. Note aircraft can also be designed without a tail, e.g. the B-2 Stealth Bomber but then need a more sophisticated control system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plummet Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Posted by Martyn Johnston on 13/02/2012 15:36:06:'He's havin' a go at the birds now...'. I better not havin' a go at the birds --- my wife sometimes reads this forum.P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Johnston Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 They do twist their tail as they fly. ie not just up and down. So if it's twisted to the right, and then lifted up, that would help turn to the right. I guess that helps them. Note also that young birds have to learn to fly before their tail feathers have had chance to develop fully, so they only have a really short tail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Simmons Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The bird's bodies can twist their tail feathers, so it acts like a V tail... The B2 bomber also does not need a fin. and most of our knowledge came from studying birds (of a feathered kind. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Simmons Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Great minds think alike.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W-O Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 duckerons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowerman Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The Horton brothers had it sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plummet Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Yes, I agree with what you have all said, but you do seem to be talking about the birds moving their horizontal control surfaces so that they are partially vertical in order to change their flight pattern. This is the bird waggling their rudder/ailerons. It does not (quite) tell me why they do not need a vertical fin for straight and level flight, or why we do. Plummet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowerman Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I suspect the birds use the wing feathers in a simmilar way to the drag rudders on the B2. Normal lay-out models, and full size, do not have drag rudders so need vertical fin/rudder assemblies. As Frank says the B2 needs a sofisticated control system and even a birds brain is far more sofisticated tha the flight controll computer in the B2. The Horton brothers managed without a computer and scale models of thier aircraft can be sucessful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hargreaves - Moderator Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Posted by Martyn Johnston on 13/02/2012 15:36:06: 'He's havin' a go at the birds now...'. LOL..... He's not the Messiah he's a very naughty boy...... If we could design a fully flexible wing with about 40 servos in it for control & another 20 servos to control an all moving tail then we could probably dipense with the fin too..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Towlie Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Posted by Martyn Johnston on 13/02/2012 15:36:06: 'He's havin' a go at the birds now...'. That did actually make me laugh out loud! Like many have said already you don't need to have a fin, just like you don't need an engine it just makes things easier and more practical. The Festo Bird is the closest I've seen to true bird like flight see below Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bess Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 That is too cool Towlie never seen anything like it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Birds have sophisticated control systems. Variable geometry too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spice Cat Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Posted by Martyn Johnston on 13/02/2012 15:36:06: 'He's havin' a go at the birds now...'. No I don't think he's singeling out birds; just aerial users in general. Now stop picking your nose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Privett Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Notice though that the Festo SmartBird does have a small vertical fin on the tail. If I remember the story correctly they were hoping to not need one, but eventually had to admit defeat and include it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Posted by perttime on 13/02/2012 19:44:50:Birds have sophisticated control systems. Variable geometry too. And 50 million years or so of software development!!! C8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Ireland Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Well said Kevin, I think that just about sums it up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH 82A Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 The reason is that birds don't know they need a fin, in the same way that theoretically, bees can't fly, they don't know they can't fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josip Vrandecic -Mes Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 So,because a birds have a very good sense of political direction....lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Grigg Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Very well put DH 82A hence the reason the Bee Gee killed so many pilots,the pilots knew it shouldnt fly and proved it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 The Bee Gees may have damaged a few ear drums but I don't think they were murderers. The Granville Brothers' Gee Bees on the other hand...Edited By Martin Harris on 14/02/2012 16:42:23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryorbik Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Maybe birds just have built-in, three axis, head holding gyros, hence they can fly straight and level. Never seen one do a stall turn though !! Barry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bess Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 What about bats then they don't even have tail feathers just a membrane stretched between there front legs and back legs ,watching them catch insects mid air is amazing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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