Using the rudder

[The Wright Stuff]

Hi all,

I've got a Black Horse Speed Air as my second plane (and first low winger), and got to grips with it - I can take-off, land, throw it around and do circuits, figure of eights, loops, etc.

I've recently converted to Mode 2 (having originally learned on Mode 1) and am finding it very difficult to get used to using the rudder. I can using to track on the ground during take-off, and I can do a basic stall turn, but I now find myself doing all my flying 'bank and yank' on the right stick alone. I find it impossible to use both sticks at the same time to to coordinate turns using both rudder and aileron. My brain just goes blank!

Are there particular techniques I can use to improve this? I've read about practicing flat turns and rolls using opposite airleron and rudder, but the rudder seems to have very little effect on the Speed Air, apart from an ungainly skew sideways. Do I need more rudder throw?

[Martyn K]

I have exactly the same history and problem. I can't intuitively use the Rudder after conversion from Mode 1 to Mode 2.. I suspect the only answer is practice, practice, practice. And when you have done that, practice more. Also perform manoeuvres that require rudder input, slow rolls and knife edge flying may also help.

But then, what would I know, I can't do it either

Martyn

Edited By Martyn K on 13/04/2012 15:41:46

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Flat turns are the way I was taught to use rudder and its what I teach now. Up the rudder throw - within common sense limits you can't have too much rudder throw - so just get as much as you can.

Then the object is to turn the plane with the rudder using just enough opposite aileron to keep the wings level. You'll find that you tend to lose height during these turns - that's because you're side-slipping and there is much increased drag so you slow down and then lift decreases. Counteract with a bit of up elevator with a slight throttle increase. Do no use too much up elevator to maintain altitude - crossed controls and up-elevator is an excellent spin entry technique!

Once you can basically mange flat turns try rectangular circuits made entirely of flat turns - clockwise and anti-clockwise. Then try flat figure 8's etc.

Once you have that sorted try sideslip approaches - to the left and the right and from the left and the right.

Then...try ultra-slow rolls, knife-edge flight. Then come an show me how to do them really well! Martyn is spot on - its practice, practice practice! Eventually it will come naturally.

BEB

PS Welcome to the forum!

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 13/04/2012 16:13:34

[Jon Laughton]

I think a lot of mode 2 flyers (& I am one) get lazy and forget to use rudder except when it is really required e.g. for stall turns. Yanka nd bank is made too easy for us all by excellent model design / low wing loadings!

I've forced myself to use rudder and ailerons (+ elevator) to make smoother turns particularly in circuits. However I find that it is easiest to get used to using the rudder to refine the direction of the glidepath on the final approach to landing and if you have a model with a low landing speed practising this on a low fly by may help it to become more 'natural'.....

Hope this helps (from a self confessed non expert flyer)!

Good luck,

Jon

[Simon Chaddock]

Hmmmm.

I have sat in many light planes and watched the pilots.

Apart from take off and cross wind landings do they use the rudder much?

Glider pilots are different but they have to handle significant wing inertia and adverse yaw.

If the plane makes a more or less 'natural' turn what exactly is wrong with bank and yank?

I can however see quite a few dangers in doing flat turns, particularly when close to the ground.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Oh yes - flat turns low down are not recommended! As I said a stall entry into a spin is never far away in a flat turn!

Simon you are quite right - in most modern full size aircraft the rudder is a very rarely used control. But they have very sophisticated aileron geometries - much more so than our simple model's hinge systems! Models are much more likely to suffer from adverse yaw than full size - hence using the rudder is recommended for neater trurns - especially with scale jobs.

The second point is that we do more aerobatics in an afternoon that most full size light aircraft pilots do in 10 years! And you can't do a slow roll, a hesitation roll, a Farnborough Pass, side-slip approach or knife edge (to name just a few) or almost any aerobatic move in the presence of a wind, without using the rudder!

But I do agree with your general sentiment Simon - if your model does do nice neat turns with just aileron and elevator - well that's good - why complicate things?

BEB

[Paul Adams]

If you have a simulator try flying circuits with a helicopter, If you dont use rudder on a helicopter, they basically wont turn. Once you have practiced for a while you will find it will feel natual when you fly your fixed wing.

Paul

[John Privett]

Good point Paul! I've always flown mode 2 and fixed-wing only until a few years ago when I started flying helis too. Up to that point I rarely used rudder unless I "had" to. Now I find myself automatically using it on the fixed-wing models too. Heck, I even find myself using "rudder" when flying my two gliders - both of which are aileron/elevator only!

[SDF]

I'm curious, why did you chose to stop using mode 1?

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Dave Bran]

Posted by Tom Sharp 2 on 14/04/2012 19:17:34:

If you really want to teach yourself to use rudder, get a cheap easy fly 3 channel model (Rudder Elevator and Engine) and put the primary steering control on your rudder stick not on your aileron stick. This should soon improve your abilities.

Edited By Tom Sharp 2 on 14/04/2012 19:18:26

or dent the field.....................

I'm another Heli pilot who uses rudder a LOT on fixed wing..............even when it's not there......................

[Djay]

How many of you have flown a 3 channel plane with the rudder in the aileron position of the r/x and found it will not go down the runway straight, no matter how much you move the rudder left hand stick?

After flying helis for a while, it is more natural to initiate the turns with rudder than the ailerons.

Darryl

[Flanker .]

Full size use the rudder to bring the nose up to the horizon in a turn, at leat I did on AA5A's can't speak for cess pits - never flown one - yet !

I fly mode one still. Taught my self rudder by flying a shockie - a super light depron job is a fantastic tool for improving ALL flying skills but esp rudder - try it. it works.

Go well F

[cymaz]

I try and imagine there is a bar joining the rudder and aileron tx sticks. Turn right over goes the right rudder................give it a go. There will be lots of practice needed to get automatic with the rudder.

[John Privett]

Posted by Djay on 15/04/2012 10:26:37:

How many of you have flown a 3 channel plane with the rudder in the aileron position of the r/x and found it will not go down the runway straight, no matter how much you move the rudder left hand stick?

Oh, yes! Been there, got the T-shirt...

It was a newbie's plane I was taking up for him. Fortunately nearly all the trainers we see these days are four-channel!

[cymaz]

I've found rudder is not really effective until you get some speed up and a good bit of air over it.

[Martyn K]

Posted by SDF on 13/04/2012 23:50:32:

I'm curious, why did you chose to stop using mode 1?

Not my thread, but my excuse was that I learnt to fly using a 2 stick Futaba 2 channel system back in the 80's. In the early 90's I wrecked my last Gangster 52 and stopped flying for about 20 years. The world has moved on and I notice that most people now use Mode 2 with more modern kit so it seemed that now seemed a good time to change. FWIW, I've had less mishaps since changing over - possibly because I am thinking more about what I am doing and taking less risks. I can use my right hand automatically noy, but still struggle with Throttle and Rudder. But it is getting better...

Martyn

[The Wright Stuff]

Wow, thanks for all the advice guys - this forum seems way more active than most others I've looked at!

To answer SDF's question, exactly the same as Martyn. I cut my teeth on 2 channel boats and gliders. I switched to Mode 2 when I moved to work down to Cambridgeshire (no slopes!) after uni, and found that that's what most people and most clubs in the area fly on - so it made it easier to get help. I'd only just got solo on Mode 1 (I originally learned oop north), so it seemed better to switch sooner rather than later. I have to say that on balance I find Mode 2 easier, because in those moments of panic when disorientated, I can just tell my brain to forget the left stick and I can sort it out with ailerons and elevator. But the downside is that I find it made me a bit lazy - because I COULD set the throttle at 1/3 and fly circuits on just one stick - I DID just that. Hence this thread! I guess years of playing flight sim computer games with a joystick also made Mode 2 slightly more intuitive for me.

But anyway, this isn't supposed to create a thread about modes - pros and cons to both! I guess my situation is that I'm finding lots of basic web material and books out there about the 'getting started', and quite a bit of advanced 3D stuff, but not so much in between for the 'intermediate learner'. So if anyone can point me at any good books / webpages, I'd appreciate it. Thanks for the great welcome guys!

Cheers,

Ian

[Martyn K]

I was out flying in the gales on Saturday and one of our club instructors (Pete) popped along and showed me a great tip to sort out hand/eye co-ordination.

You need to be flying in a strong breeze.

Basically, bring the model into wind and slow it down so that the ground speed drops to zero. You will need to be holding the elevator just off the stall.

Now keep it there, use the ailerons to hold the wings steady, throttle to maintain zero ground speed, elevator to prevent the stall and rudder to hold it into wind. He made it look so easy. I managed it for about 5 seconds...

Martyn

[Olly P]

Yep, been there done that - was trying to land at the time mind......

Managed a landing while travelling backwards...with no damage I might add. Admittedly more luck than judgement

[Martyn K]

I was actually landing cross wind, downwind from some trees. I am amazed I got it down in the right place without any damage for at least 12 landings. The only way to beat the turbulence was to keep the air and ground speed up and use the rudder to keep it tracking correctly. Great fun...

[Doug Ireland]

Posted by Simon Chaddock on 13/04/2012 21:54:59:

Hmmmm.

I have sat in many light planes and watched the pilots.

Apart from take off and cross wind landings do they use the rudder much?

Glider pilots are different but they have to handle significant wing inertia and adverse yaw.

If the plane makes a more or less 'natural' turn what exactly is wrong with bank and yank?

I can however see quite a few dangers in doing flat turns, particularly when close to the ground.

Hi Simon, I built up almost 700 hours in Light Aircraft (including twins) before I lost my license due to reduced eyesight and can assure you that the rudder is used constantly from take-off to landing. As a student pilot I was slapped on the head more than once for not "keeping the ball in the middle" during turns. Most airliners have ARI (aileron-rudder interconnect) that suits the aircraft for most manoeuvres but there are times when a more positive application is needed. Imagine a Jumbo having to do a Rate 2 turn without rudder input! It would scare the hell out of the passengers for one thing!

[cymaz]

I was told to imagine a bar between the rudder and ailerons. Left aileron,left rudder. Practice and practice.

I now use rudder alot,especially with my big Meteor.

Also get intuitive with throttle as well. Flying downwind, cut it back a bit. Come around into wind start increasing it gradually.

Hope this helps.

[Paul Adams]

Cymaz - Your use of throttle could spell disaster for your model. The model does not know that it is flying in wind, all it knows is that it is flying in a block of air, so what you are effectively doing is increasing the models speed when flying into wind and slowing the model speed when going down wind. The down wind speed is where you could have problems. You slow the model down, so have to add a little up elevator to keep level flight. You then go to do your downwind turn, and the outside aileron goes down causing that wing to stall. I have seen several models falling out the sky, with the pilots saying I don't know what happened and blaming it on interference or other factors, when its actually pilot induced.

[cymaz]

Correct...

Though I see several fliers who fly the whole time with WOT when doing manoeuvers and only then close the throttle when landing. The use of throttle is important, though, as you point out it can spell disaster. I wasn't meaning that the throttle should be shut right down.

When practicing figure 8's for the B test, I was coached to use the throttle alot to control the radius of the turn and not by introducing more bank angle and it worked .......... very useful. Your thoughts on that please.

Edited By cymaz on 02/05/2012 15:17:16