Are LHS's Doomed??

[Pete B]

Yes, but reading that article it is for the duration of their Congress - just a tad more extreme than the security measures imposed in London for a different function a couple of months ago

Be that as it may, even if modelling was totally purged in PRC, they still need the currency from the exports, so I think we can breathe easily for a while.

It's just a matter of which superpower buckles first. If the dollar collapses, then we'll do very well with our HK purchases - until Armageddon, that is!

Pete

[Scubajon]

It's all very simple. Support your local or they go out of business! Then you won't have choices. you will have to buy online and tthe prices will start to rise and eventually, you'll be no better off anyway. And you get a much better service from your regular LMS once they get to know you. The internet is ok, but it's very impersonal and personally I am willing to pay a little more for the personal service alone. And most of the shops will knock a couple of quid off, especially if you're spending a sizeable sum at the time. your choice.

[scott finnie]

There's a couple of model shops in Edinburgh but they've become greedy and dont offer much advice for free anymore, i used to remember popping in for tea or coffee and a chat about the next thing i had on my bench, but now its all about are you buying? if so then they will rush you into it, if you're not buying they quickly make you feel unwanted, i've found a great shop though its almost 45minutes drive away ie £25 petrol, and there great, its a younger bunch who run the place but they enjoy helping you out for FREE and also can get me most things i want , all my fpv gear that i wanted from the states they managed to source for literally half the price, i'll be standing by them through the tough time since if they do go then it will be very difficult to find the little necesities ie glow fuel ect the stuff that makes this hobby work

[IAN EDGE]

Posted by Pete B on 09/11/2012 18:55:59:

Yes, but reading that article it is for the duration of their Congress - just a tad more extreme than the security measures imposed in London for a different function a couple of months ago

Be that as it may, even if modelling was totally purged in PRC, they still need the currency from the exports, so I think we can breathe easily for a while.

It's just a matter of which superpower buckles first. If the dollar collapses, then we'll do very well with our HK purchases - until Armageddon, that is!

Pete

The curency from exports is one of major factors why many countries including the UK are in such dire straights, Quite simply the balance of trade is killing us, money leaves the country for cheap imports so we have less employment, we therefore buy more foreign cheap goods so that our money goes further and so on untill eventually we all end up with nothing, this has been happening for years which is why succesive Uk goverments have not published the balance of trade more widely but it is acelerating and the only thing that will stop it is buying british and supporting british suppliers, Obviously we cannot get everyting we need from the uk ie balsa but every little helps, although that may be a tesco slogan they help very little i spotted them selling runner beans from south africa and podded peas from peru in july this year which certainly doesnt help me as i am a market gardener

[Piers Bowlan]

Quite so Ian, the balance of trade has been against us since the Second World War (a long time ago) except that year by year the imbalance has been getting worse as our manufacturing base contracted. It has only been the 'invisible exports' ie. the banking and Insurance sector that has saved UK PLC up to now by balancing the books. So much for those whose sole desire these days is to bash the banks (Vince Cable, take note).

Now Subajon, you say, 'You get much better service from your regular LMS once they get to know you.' Why should this be? If you walk into your LMS you are a potential CUSTOMER so why do they ignore you as they do unless you are one of their 'mates'?

I got back from Singapore this morning but while I was there I went into a local shopping complex where there are five model shops close together. As you enter the shops you are asked if you are looking for anything in particular. If you say you are browsing they show you what is new in or on special offer. This is not rocket science! The shops are well lit, unlike one UK LMS I can think of which is like a cave. The shops are simply crammed with well organised/ displayed stock. The owner asks what you fly at home and is ready to chat.. If you leave without buying anything they cheerily wave goodbye and say please come again. Is it the British 'reserve' or is it that in the UK we just don't know how to do customer service?

By way of contrast I walked into my LMS a while ago and and asked if they had a VMAR RF4 in stock. The burly chap behind the counter nodded. I asked to see one. He gestured towards the one hanging from the ceiling at the back of the shop. I explained that I should like to look at one out of the box as I wanted to check for warps etc. On an on-line forum I had read that there were 'issues' and a quick inspection would reveal if I had two left wings etc! He wearily made a meal out of opening the box. As I gave the model a quick once over he lent on the counter and drummed his fingers, gazing up at the ceiling. Amazingly I still bought the model!

Clearly this character is not cut out for retail and is not typical but it does make the point that your LMS does not have a right to your custom and if their customer service is rubbish people will go elsewhere or simply buy online.

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 17/11/2012 18:22:44

[Erfolg]

Those who predict the predict the melt down of the Chinese economy as the saviour of the LMS seem to be missing something. They will have no expensive Chinese stock to sell either.

[Colin Anderson]

I have two LMS near to me. To be honest I doubt very much if I'd want to use either! One I went to showed a complete lack of interest and bordered on being down right rude; the other was only really interested in selling me ARTF.

Years ago I used to build and fly control line, free flight rubber and gliders. My interest in modelling is not therefore solely in flying, but also in the building of models. Having been away from modelling for well over 30 years and not having ever flown radio control I was looking for friendly and helpful advice. I got neither. The most friendly, knowledgable and helpful people that catered for my requirements were My Hobby Store and Sussex Models; both of which I was able to deal with via old fashioned technowlegy - the phone. They both offered me useful and impartial advice taking into account that I actually wished to build my own model. I actually drove down to visit Sussex Models and purchased further from them; shame they are so far away because they are really helpful, friendly and enthusiastic - LMS take note.

[Mogs]

On a matter of principle I buy from my LHS as my first port of call, having first looked on the web. Broadly I would expect my LHS to be no more than 20% more expensive, within the 20% I am happy to buy, above and I have to give a little extra thought. I define the LHS as one thats within 15 miles of home or one that is British. I check the address and visit the location virtually on Google Street View. I loath online ordering so I always ring, then buy over the phone. Only when all else fails and it's the only source I can find do I online order.

[Erfolg]

The figure of 20% is a big difference. I doubt that many businesses could survive if they charged consistently 20% more than their competitors. Customers will tend to gravitate to other shops, or suppliers.

I do think that the point of attitude as highlighted by Colin is relevant. The unique feature of the LMS is a face to face experience. Any retailer who does not maximise this aspect, may find that the convenience, a wider range of items and lower prices of on line shopping is preferred by potential customers.

Edited By Erfolg on 19/11/2012 17:13:26

[wayne drinkwater]

A bit of a tricky one this as my LHS is in fact the Hobby King New Zealand showroom !!!!! Honestly they are about a 20 minute drive away and although they hold a good stock of just about everything covering film balsa etc I still find it cheaper to buy complete airframes via their Hong Kong warehouse even with the shipping but if I need Li-Po's or Y leads they get my business, they offer a guarantee on HK products bought from them but not goods purchased from the international warehouse.

[Erfolg]

Wayne

Do you not have the equivalent of "Import Duty, VAT (Value added tax) and handling charges"?

One of the major issues for MS and general UK business, is that the additional taxes are high, typically a shop will have to pay, Business Rates, additional waste collection charges, water rates, heating bills, lighting, plus any rent or mortgage. Then there are charges for National Insurance, and Income tax. The business rates and rent are often very onerous.

The plight of the LMS is compounded in that the major distributors have similar overheads and want to make a profit.

Then there is the issue that the number of modellers in the UK are small,probably dispersed around the country. It has recently been suggested that the BMFA has about 36,000 members. Assume that there are 3* that number who are not members, about 110,000, then double that to cover all other modellers 220,000 may be 500,000 by being extremely generous. Then there is the UK population of +63m. We only represent about 0.8% approx 1% being very generous. When compared with food and clothing, where we all use and need them, the turnover is necessarily low. IF the government made allowances for niche retailing, we could have a more diverse high street, but the howl of protest from mainstream retailing would be deafening. Mainly as they would be the ones making up the lost tax. UK governments are all tax hungry, the EU is worse still. Plus there is the issue of consequences of transferring burdens, often resulting in perverse behaviours and results. I can see the burdening of standard rates tax payers to pay part of the energy bills of the low income will have similar consequences, as with pensions, there being no incentive to look after yourself, if income is low.

I am afraid that LMS as we know them will change, what to, is any bodies guess. My own is Inter-net based primarily, with a few large shops as part of the Inter-net business

[Mogs]

Posted by Erfolg on 19/11/2012 17:10:27:

The figure of 20% is a big difference. I doubt that many businesses could survive if they charged consistently 20% more than their competitors. Customers will tend to gravitate to other shops, or suppliers.

I agree 20% is high but on the small ticket items the cash equivalent is not so bad. I've never known my LHS to be anywhere near that. Twenty is a number I can do the arithmetic in my head and my personal baulk line. It only applies to my hobby.

[Erfolg]

The subject of the LMS has been discussed by all of us many times. It is a subject that we all have an opinion. The LMS is also something that the vast majority emotionally support.

I have thought about the changing face of the high street over the past hour or so. I have seen the composition of local shops change out of all recognition. I am sure most will have similar observations. There were no takeaways at all, not even a Chip Shop, now we have a number of takeaways, including two fish and chip shops, one doing Chinese takeaway. All the small grocers went, including the Co-op, for a period there was not a single grocers shop, now we have two Co-ops, and a number of small supermarkets like NInsa. What is important, is that they differ from the original grocers being larger and keener in price, or offer convenience.

In a sense, nothing has changed apparently in the long term, yet a detailed examination does show a lot of change in how these businesses trade and how people make use of them.

There is one area which is disappointing and that is toy shops. There were at least 3 toy shops in the area, they have all gone. Some doubled in selling modelling things in addition, but primarily toy shops. Paradoxically, my grand kids have more toys than I ever dreamed off. Most rubbish, much advertised, very expensive. So where do these come from now, well outlets such as Toys- R-Us & Smyths. Another disappointment is that over the years we have had locally 7 model shops, 3 being the most at any one time, today not one. My LMS is now 5 or 15 miles away.

The hope is in the area of bicycle shops, i have seen them go from 5 to none. Yet today there are 3 again in the area.

I think the hope lies in that much stays at the surface much the same, yet in the longer term, successful shops re-invent themselves to suit the current times. From what I observe, a lot of LMS will go and later be replaced by a new business operating in the same area. In some cases LMS go because the individuals who made them successful, either came to rest on their laurels, or maybe they aged and decided that the risks and effort were more than they would accept, particularly if no members of the family wanted to take over, or lacked the drive. There is no shame in making a conscious decision to stop trading, it can make sense.

So some will survive, trends suggest in smaller numbers, they will be different to reflect the wants and needs of the era, with different people (which is the way of small enterprises).

In mid career, I spent some time in project evaluation, rather surprisingly, most projects subjected for evaluation were rejected. Their supporters being ridiculously optimistic in some cases. I personally suspect if I were evaluating a proposal for a LMS, I would take some convincing. Yet I know that some projects achieve success in the face of adversity, some convincingly so. A lot depends on the people concerned, their drive, vision, determination and the ability to adapt.

Edited By Erfolg on 20/11/2012 17:38:26

[ericrw]

What should I do ? My latest purchase will be a Blackhorse Shrike Commander EP. A UK shop will charge me £225=€280. or I use a German shop who will charge €184= £147.97. The carriage is approx the same.

[wayne drinkwater]

Here in NZ we have GST (goods and service tax) 15% but I have never been charged any duties on any of my HK imports I dont know why but if I were to be charged then I would probably stop using the overseas suppliers

[Pete B]

Posted by ericrw on 20/11/2012 17:46:46:

What should I do ? My latest purchase will be a Blackhorse Shrike Commander EP. A UK shop will charge me £225=€280. or I use a German shop who will charge €184= £147.97. The carriage is approx the same.

How about the same from KLMS, Eric?

Pete

[ericrw]

Pete, Obviously I didn't shop around enough !! My order will be placed with KLMS. Eric.

[Pete B]

I only happened to notice it when I was ordering a charger a couple of days ago. Eric. Shopping around is the order of the day, I agree, particularly for the big ticket goods.

Generally speaking, items have been a bit/quite a bit more expensive here in Euroland but recently I've seen some narrowing of the margin - and somewhat cheaper in certain cases. The exchange rate has helped considerably, too.

Pete

[ericrw]

Top marks for KLMS, their postage for the model is only £4.96.

I suppose I'm still not using my LMS but at least I'm buying in the UK market .

[wayne drinkwater]

A very interesting topic on tonights current affairs programme stated that New Zealanders now are spending 1.1Billion NZ$ a year shopping on overseas websites !!

And how does it affect the retail trade ?

it appears that on purchases under NZ$400 (200 quid) not taxes or duties are applicable!

The NZ postal service is experiencing a boom and are now getting in on the overseas shipping game and there is a 27% growth in the number of courier useage

NZ businesses are now adapting to selling and producing more "homegrown" products as these cannot be sourced anywhere but NZ thus sidestepping the overseas online shopping situation.

In summary for a while it did hurt the retail trade but like anything else they learned to adapt .

But its all down to consumer choice

[Erfolg]

Here in the Uk, the exception limit is only £15 or £36 if a gift.

Even with these low limits many retailers have been very unhappy, campaigning and obtaining a reduction down to £15 from £18. The tax and overheads are a very real problem for UK retailers. Margins in some areas are quite low, although some are reported to be a few hundred percent on some fashion and luxury goods.

The margins are very high on goods which fall outside the competition rules and single market regulations, such as Perfumes (where the French have a vested interest). Art products are also exempt (although this is a less robust market). Others side step regulations, with EU turning a blind eye, by controlling outlets permitted to sell their goods by selection of retail outlets on the grounds of showcasing their products and customer support. Here the representatives monitor sales price and have a quite word (the sensible not recording what has been said). The other strand to maintaining high margins is the use of copyright laws, where goods destined for a non EU market are deemed to be counterfeit if attempts are made to sell them within the EU

Within the EU there is generally no limit, although there actually is in the UK for such goods as Alcohol, tobacco products, some food stuffs etc. For modellers buying for modelling, I do not think the exceptions are an issue.

Although the EU is supposably a single market, not all is what it seems, although the general direction has been towards the goal, err, that is with the exemption of historic vested interest in some areas and the manipulation of copyright law.

[Dylan Reynolds LaserCraft Services]

Just to contradict the norm, I decided yesterday to buy a new ARTF, already knew which one I wanted, so checked out ebay, price £269 + postage, checked online, cheapest UK model shop (big names etc) SMC, price £249, phoned up my LMS (model & hobby world Lancaster), with out mentioning anywhere else or prices - £225 and no postage! delivery to shop in 2 to 3 working days.

[ianl1201]

Not been on here for a while but wanted to stick my oar in...personally I come down on the Hobbyking side of the fence. I love the tactile experience of visiting the LHS and usually do spot a part or pick up a magazine or brochure, but apart from my Twinstar, all my models have come from HK. I've wanted to get back into model flying for years and HK have finally allowed me to do that at a price I can afford.

I like me warbirds and basically, the price they charge for what I think are a decent range of scale foamies, means I can indulge my hobby whilst still maintaining domestic harmony and that counts for a lot! Maybe I've been lucky but so far have had no issues with quality or delivery times...and no, I don't work for HK!

[wayne drinkwater]

I second that Ian thanks to comanies like HK I can own and fly a model for not much more than the cost of 2 rolls of covering film!!!

I dont build much any more as its way dearer by the time you have bought all the extras and there is less "emotional attachment" to a foamie when you do the inevitable usually a hot glue gun will put it right.

I am nearing 55 now and have been aeromoddeling since my teens so I know I can build a good model if I ever get the need.

Living here in NZ we fly all year round so there is never the time to spend making models

[Paul Marsh]

Problem is UK Industry is being lost. Been today, to Sittingbourne, and recently they lost their 300 old paper mill. Been knocked down and replaced with a supermarket and housing.

Found out today that all the printing machinery went to India, which will be used and the paper shipped back here(!!!!???). The electric cables were all cut to length and shipped to China, where they'll be used again.

Supermarkets and housing are all fine, but don't actually contribute to the whole uk economy. It provides a few jobs - but probably lower pay and much less numbers. Same in Leomington Spa, where the Ford engine factory shut down - losing 16,000 jobs in the local enonomy. Gone to China.

Edited By Paul Marsh on 30/11/2012 20:10:25