Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I just know that my fellow mods are going look at this thread and say "What does BEB think he's doing!!!???" But I have faith in you guys - so here goes,..I want to debate a pretty controversial idea,...are you ready? The Motion for Debate is: This house believes that the UK should adopt a formal licencing policy for R/C pilots. (Keep your hair on and remember to breathe!) Why? Well at present there absolutely nothing stopping anyone from buying a 40lb R/C model and trying to fly it down at the local park. Right? In the past this wasn't really possible - because you had to have the skill to build the thing - so it was effectively self moderating. But that's no longer true. Anyone can go on the internet and buy anything they can afford and if that includes a 40lb gas turbine powered model - then so be it. Is this a sensible situation? We don't let people who can't drive buy powerful motor cars? Well they could but they can't drive them on a public raod legally! And the danger I would suggest is not only to the person concerned, nor even is it limited to those around them. One major accident could possibly have repercussions for all of us. Just look at what has happened following knee jerk legislation on dogs and guns. Perhaps if you hadn't been able to buy such a dog without proving you were competent to own it those people would still have a hobby? Basically, what I'm asking is should we jump now, through the BMFA, to get legislation that protects us, or do we wait to be pushed and trust that either nothing will happen or if it does the politicians and media will be sensible and proportionate in their response? What would it look like? Well we could debate that. First there could be a complete exemption for anything under half a pound in weight, would also allow the trade in small "toy like" models to continue no problem. Then perhaps there should be a sort of "provisional licence" issued on joining the BMFA, this allows you to fly anything up to say 1lb in weight unsupervised or perhaps 6lbs in weight under supervision in a club. That would cover small foamies, indoor types and most modern trianers in clubs. Perhaps there should be a power to weight clause there as well. Then you could then have the normal licence - something like an A cert - covers you upto 15lbs weight. That ought to cover the vast majority of fliers. Finally an advance cert - like the B - for over that. Each licence could be a provisional licence for the next higher category - so a basic licence allows you to fly larger models under supervision. It could be illegal for a trader to sell someone a model without seeing the approriate licence. Similarly it would be illegal to fly such a model in or over a public place without an appropriate licence. Now, a couple of ground rule for the debate - all contributions to stay calm - its not a matter of personal life or death - so lets keep things in proportion. Its an idea - I'm not even sure I like it myself! - its here for grown up sensible debate! If you don't feel like sensible restrained debate - go and find another thread quickly! One last thing - remember, the question isn't would you "like" such a thing - I think we'd be unanimous on not liking it - the question is should we do it because the alternative may be worse! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hargreaves - Moderator Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 What on earth does BEB think he's doing????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Good question Steve, this is going to be fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 LOL Come on lads and lasses show them that my faith in you is justified! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 TBH it might even be a good idea to show some responsibility from inside our sport. Rather than have to fight for ourselves with everyone against us, much like the gun lobbyists in the USA are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith ellis 2 Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Next we will have to take our planes to a testing station like an mot.. And so it goes on. .. :-/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Bennett Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 just make the bmfa insurance cert the proof needed to buy a model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Sorry wrong end of stick i misread title LOl Edited By Mark R on 10/02/2013 22:07:09 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouncebounce crunch Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I have mentioned something along these lines before in other posts. I know the internet can't be fully regulated with proof of competency before they sell to you but I do believe that a local hobby store could have signage that proof of club membership and certain competency level card needed for this purchase would be a good starting point. then the internet stuff may get some sort of regulation down the track. I have on several times visited an unfamiliar hobby store seen a kit i liked and purchased and the owner or staff have asked me if i have flown before or built any models before and have even been offered a go on a flight sim. So there are those that point out the risks and offer advice that really care about our hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leighfield Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 It's been clear for some time that terrorists can buy over the counter all that they need to create a highly effective radio controlled flying bomb with a useful range. Licensing isn't going to eliminate that risk. The last thing we need is even more bureaucratic systems and paperwork employing non-productive civil servants. Surely we're restricted quite enough as it is. Finally, what do you do about privare second-hand deals on EBay etc? We've already got the lunatics in charge of the asylum in our existing UK and EU politics, don't give them even more to stick their dead hands on and thoroughly screw up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 9 Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 "Well at present there absolutely nothing stopping anyone from buying a 40lb R/C model and trying to fly it down at the local park" Has this ever happened and if it did how many people got hurt. sledge hammer to crack a nut? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben goodfellow 1 Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 theoretically good , practically very bad . the person who is not im a club and lives miles from one . what does he do fly small foamies all the time. also i could very easily see it costing us fliers more money on the enforcement which it would . also getting a kind of provisional license would we have to pass a theory test similar to driving . also the average 55 year old pilot been flying for 40 years would theybe testing the local 14 year old super 3d pilot or would the 14 year old be doing the testing . who sets the standard, i could see some people getting put out by that . i do think it would be a good thing but is maybe best left alone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolstonFlyer Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Hmmm interesting but no!A few things off the top of my head:The cost of the admin to run it would be rather large and who would you expect to police the scheme... the police? They don't even police half of the current UK laws most of the time.Also how would you propose a check of a 'license" on an internet sale of an ARTF?Also: What are the current accident stats for our hobby? Would the extra layer of complex rules actually make any difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aky208 Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 LHS's struggle enough without having to turn customers away because they haven't got the right credentials. Although sensible, I think logistically, it will be a nightmare to implement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 The existing ANO covers the 40lb model scenario in the OP. We don't need any licensing legislation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Bennett Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 once again, the law abiding will suffer and the could not care less types will just carry on. plus models shops would have to turn away custom, where as ebay and the internet would not care less. not a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Concorde Speedbird Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Right, I haven't posted in a while but here it goes. In a word- no. The term 'common sense' comes to mind, if everyone has at least a brain cell there would not need to be a licensing system (which everyone does). I just think already many people take this hobby too seriously, just have a laugh, it's much more fun. Like someone else says, what next? Could our planes need monthly tests to ensure their airworthiness, pilots need regular testing. Yawn, just get on with it as said in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. This a hobby that is meant to be fun, not haunted by a massive book of regulations and requirements. As long as the consumer has some common sense, then it is absolutely fine how it is. CS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Preposterous! ...but I do see where you're coming from BEB so I agree it's worth discussing further than the knee-jerk reaction above! Self regulation worked for full sized gliding for over 80 years (until the EU imposed EASA regulation reared its head) but even there, although there was an "achievement scheme" and instructional hierarchy, no formal licence was ever adopted and the sport was administered by the British Gliding Association (based in Leicester). The CAA was happy to allow the BGA to take responsibility for all day to day administration and regulation. There do seem to be rather a lot of similarities here! Would formal licensing give us any protection from the consequences of a disastrous incident? I don't believe that the former owners of licenced pistols would agree. However, times are changing and the "normal" apprenticeship of joining a club to learn to fly the model that you have spent months building, followed by a progression through more challenging models under the often watchful eyes of more senior members until progressing to a "full house 60 sized hot model" are long behind us (although some elements still apply to the majority of us). A few years ago, CAA exemption was needed to fly anything above 5kg although less rigidly applied than the present LMA administered over 20kg scheme. However, the thought of inexperienced pilots flying 19 kg models - particuarly fast turbine powered - is worrying. There would need to be a lot of thought over any administration - we don't have any professional infrastructure outside of the BMFA "office" which would make a thorough examination of national standards very necessary - various postings in this forum have highlighted varying standards of A and B testing despite the ongoing efforts of the Acheivement Scheme to align standards. Edited By Martin Harris on 10/02/2013 22:29:32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Flyer Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I've a better idea..................... Let's make everything illegal to start with........... and I really do mean EVERYTHING. Then licence any approved activity only to people who have demonstrated a competence in them. Charge a fixed rate for a licence for each competency required; all revenue being used to supposedly police each activity. We would then have a perfect world where everyone was ticking all of the correct H&S boxes in any activity they chose to do, and the Government would be able to keep tabs on everyone and control everything. Safety would be improved dramatically and everyone would be accountable. Hang on..................................I've got a feeling that is what they are trying to do anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 But do all consumers have common sense CSB? My experience tells me no. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Those of us old enough to remember had Model Control Licences back in the 70's. I don't think we saw it as too much of an imposition - it cost a nominal amount, I can't remember how much - and to an extent we felt it gave us a say in the radio world. Admittedly, it didn't stop CB coming along and swamping 27MHz, but because we were an 'official' group, the government had to listen eventually and gave us 35MHz. It's an interesting idea, BEB, but I think your proposals are far too complex. Who would police it - and at what cost? A law is a bad law if it cannot be enforced and I cannot envisage an organisation big enough to adequately enforce such an involved set of rules. I could, however, envisage a return to a simple MCL issued to individuals which permitted them to fly models over, say 500g, as you suggest. which might deter the casual purchaser. I don't think the average committed modeller wouuld have a problem with that. That, of course, pre-supposes that the existence of such a licence would oblige the telecommunications authorities to provide us with protection against interference on our frequencies and provide a vigorous and effective prosecution service for those causing interference or flying without the relevant MCL. Frankly, the world has moved on and whilst today we seem to be more and more regulated in many walks of life, in practice successive governments have de-regulated a lot of things - dog licensing, CB radio, etc etc. There, managed that without blowing a fuse.......... Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Flyer Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 10/02/2013 22:26:59: But do all consumers have common sense CSB? My experience tells me no. BEB Let's have a Government test for 'Common Sense' and then cull everyone that fails........................the world would be a much safer place then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 There are lots of folks basically saying they wouldn't like it - I agree I wouldn't either. But the question is given the way things go "might it be in our long term interests"? BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Supervision for this and supervision for that - BEB you need to join a small club where there are no instructors or anything close to it - just a bunch of guys paying the rental on a field - most clubs I suspect! Also most flying fields are on private land so would not be within government control. In the old days you had to buy a licence for RC radio use (7/6d if I remember) and I suppose you could introduce that again (like a fishing licence) but no park flying 'yobbo' would buy one and it would just be another of those petty nanny laws that everybody breaks. Finally, any sales control would be instantly zapped by the chinese who would be only too pleased to send your RTF 60lb thrust gas turbine pointy flying thing in a plain brown box marked "toy parts" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Posted by Devon Flyer on 10/02/2013 22:25:39: I've a better idea..................... Let's make everything illegal to start with........... and I really do mean EVERYTHING. Then licence any approved activity only to people who have demonstrated a competence in them. Just seen DF's post - can we include pro-creation and parenthood in this, too? Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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