FPV issues

[scott finnie]

Hi all, i havent been on for a while since i found myself in a rather deep hole at xmas time! I was out flying my radian fpv when the police turned up! They where fine with my flying but took down some details, i was flying beside north berwick near edinburgh and not in controlled airspace, after this i received my new fpv toy my Droidworx Cx4 which i have used to establish a new aerial photography company called Topgun Scotland ltd, it was after a few trial flights that i was contacted by Lothian and Borders Police to to come in for a meeting with the CAA , somebody on youtube ( a sad person) had reported my fpv flying to them and now the CAA where investigating, i have since been threatened with confiscating all my aircraft and rc equipment and a large fine! I am though still flying and have moved all my equipment from my workshop to a private garage. This is a little reminder to those who are trying out or are tempted with FPV to watch you're back and if posting videos then edit them accordingly, i'll be posting more up soon with my visual view buddy too, happy flying all,

Scott

[ken anderson.]

we've had a couple of FPV models at our club site recently...we fly in controlled airspace and the article ......ANO Article 166 (3) ....is the most current one to be adhered to......... unless you live in a very remote location.......i think that to fly a FPV model.......you are going to need a lot of prior permission......or find yourself in trouble......

ken anderson ne...1 ..... FPV dept.

[Allan Bowker]

An interesting story Scott, sorry you are in this position. My guess is that it was the police that reported you to the CAA and not a member of the public (maybe I'm wrong?).

Thanks for posting your account and I wish you all the best, I'm sure you already know about the BMFA's requirements on FPV and other online resources like www.fpvuk.org

Hopefully the BMFA will help to support you.

[Eamonn Fahey]

Will the BMFA offer to help if Scott is running a business?

[Craig Carr]

Hello Scott,

Sorry to hear of your trouble, its certainly governed by the ANO, this is on the BMFAs website

BMFA FPV

Hope you get it sorted ok

Craig

[PatMc]

If you want to fly a uav for commercial purposes you need to get the necessary CAA application(s) sent in. Nothing to do with BMFA or SAA & I doubt FPVUK either.

[scott finnie]

I had sent the necesary applications off to the caa and had been granted permision to fly in certain areas, the police seem to be lacking knowledge of the terms radio controlled and first person view, there seeing it as a huge threat , i explained to them i know air law inside and out due to being a pilot and i wasnt breaking any laws.

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 25/02/2013 20:40:32

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Can we refrain from ridiclous comparisons please Scott - I have had to edit your post above.

You are on very thin ice here mate and it maybe wise to drop this subject. The final part of your OP could be read as saying "break the law but make sure you cover your tracks well before going public on it"

Now I'm choosing not to read it that way - as I'm sure that isn't what you meant. But please be careful in what you say here. Remember:

1. This is a public place

2. We will not allow posts that appear to incite or endorse illegal activity.

We will be watching this tread closely.

BEB

[WolstonFlyer]

Oops edited this, just seen BEB's post above..

 

but good luck with the business idea if you get the correct paperwork back from the CAA, it could be a very interesting line of work

Edited By WolstonFlyer on 25/02/2013 20:57:12

[scott finnie]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 25/02/2013 20:45:09:

Can we refrain from ridiclous comparisons please Scott - I have had to edit your post above.

You are on very thin ice here mate and it maybe wise to drop this subject. The final part of your OP could be read as saying "break the law but make sure you cover your tracks well before going public on it"

Now I'm choosing not to read it that way - as I'm sure that isn't what you meant. But please be careful in what you say here. Remember:

1. This is a public place

2. We will not allow posts that appear to incite or endorse illegal activity.

We will be watching this tread closely.

BEB

I've never been one for breaking any laws, i just want to enjoy our hobby to the full without feeling picked on by authorities, i had all permisions to fly where i was flying including landowners permision, in know way do i incite or endorse illegal flying and anyone who does so should be dealt with accordingly, i keep myself to myself with my flying and use it as a chance to relax , i just dont want anyone else to go through the same issues, i have strict h & s guidelines i follow whilst i fly and feel that other less responsible rc pilots locally have cused issues to arise, for example a child with there father flew a ic engined aircraft into the side of a car close by, they told police they couldnt get access to any clubs nearby so attempted to fly, ts all these minor things that add up to the police taking a hard approach to others

Scott not a law breaker

[Pete B]

Posted by scott finnie on 25/02/2013 18:47:08:

This is a little reminder to those who are trying out or are tempted with FPV to watch you're back and if posting videos then edit them accordingly,

Given the situation in which you find yourself, I don't think the above advice is what I, nor most aeromodellers concerned for the future of their hobby, would wish to see on this forum, Scott.

Flying all over Edinburgh is asking for trouble, IMO.The law on FPV flying is quite specific, yet many examples of your videos seem to show you flying in places which would not be considered by non-FPV flyers.

You mention here and on Youtube using the 5.8Ghz Fat Shark system - I understand that system normally transmits at 100mW or more, yet the FPV rules limit transmission for a non-Amateur Radio Licence holder to 25mW, I believe.

If you're transmitting above 25mW, are you a licence holder? Can you honestly say all your flights are within the guidelines published by the BMFA and CAA?

You see, the problem is that we, the average R/C modeller, looks aghast at the activities of some FPV flyers who seem not to give a darn about any rules and regulations and who, by their activities, threaten the legitimate activities as modellers.

When the authorities have had enough of chasing down renegade flyers, I'm concerned that they will solve the problem by imposing stricter regulation right across the board - regardless of the type of flying.

Your latest post seems to indicate that there's a pretty relaxed approach to model flying in your area - I really do hope that's not the case.

I don't doubt your knowledge of aviation law relating to full-size and microlight flying but, on the evidence you've presented, I think some study of the FPV rules might be in order.

Pete

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Scott - my comments were not intended to be a debate - I'm speaking as a moderator!

BEB

[scott finnie]

I have to put my hands up that my first post was a tad tongue in cheek and apologise to all who i offended, must be the fire still burning within and not clearly thinking before writing, Yes i do have radio operators licence and recently passed my BNUC-S licence with help from the CAA to help make things easier

Regards,

Scott

[Delta Whiskey]

Good luck in getting it all sorted Scott - too many rules and regulations in life as it is already.

Whilst I'd always promote safety & privacy, and generally speaking here, many regs & rules in life are just there to make money.

[Phill @ Elite Workwear UK]

Watching with interest! Good luck Scott

[GONZO]

Pete B,

A small but important point about your post. The holding of any level of 'Ham' cert does not confer any additional priviledges when it comes to transmissions from an aircraft (ie video). All of us are constrained by the same limitations.

HTH

Edited By GONZO on 26/02/2013 09:31:10

Edited By GONZO on 26/02/2013 09:33:09

[Alwyn Gee]

Posted by Pete B - Moderator on 25/02/2013 21:25:08:

Your latest post seems to indicate that there's a pretty relaxed approach to model flying in your area - I really do hope that's not the case.

 

Pete

Just to answer your response to Scott above:

I would like to assure you and anyone else reading this forum that there is a no more "relaxed approach" to flying in Scotland or Edinburgh in particular than anywhere else in the UK. One of my clubsites is well within the controlled airspace for Edinburgh Airport and we are in regular contact with the CAA and local AT controllers and all club memebers are regularly reminded of the relevant rules and regs.

My other clubs which are beyond controlled airspace still follow the normal SAA code of practice which is identical to that used by the BMFA and also strict site related guidelines.

As I think Scott has made clear in the past, most of his flying is done on his own and well away from the controlled environment of club flying.

Alwyn

Edited By Alwyn Gee on 26/02/2013 10:46:00

[Pete B]

Thanks, Alwyn, the remark was not intended for the majority of flyers and I'm sure these circumstances are causing you and your fellow modellers as much concern as anyone else. I've no doubt a similar situation exists in many other places, too.

I think the fact is, advancing technology has made it relatively straightforward for anyone to fly quite sophisticated R/C models and put them in potential conflict with the general public, without the necessity of being constrained by flying site or belonging within the formalised procedures of club flying.

This will probably have unfortunate consequences sooner or later and, meanwhile, the R/C modeller as we know it can do little but stand by and watch.

Gonzo, that makes sense. All I can say is that the regs quote 25mW unless you are a licence holder - I don't know if this just an arbitrary figure and what it really means - but adverts for the FatShark tend to draw attention to the need for a licence to use it in the UK. Whether holding a licence confers magical properties over the equipment, I know not...

I think Scott has been quite courageous in coming on here and revealing his predicament, knowing that he could have been inviting a good drubbing. I'm sure he has learnt something from his experience and, if this thread gives pause for thought for anyone considering doing likewise, then it has been worthwhile.

I wish Scott no ill and hope he achieves his ambition, provided it's within the rules and not to the detriment of anyone else.

Pete

[Simon Chambers]

Posted by Pete B - Moderator on 26/02/2013 11:42:22:

Gonzo, that makes sense. All I can say is that the regs quote 25mW unless you are a licence holder - I don't know if this just an arbitrary figure and what it really means - but adverts for the FatShark tend to draw attention to the need for a licence to use it in the UK. Whether holding a licence confers magical properties over the equipment, I know not...

You are allowed to transmit over 25mW if you have a Amateur Radio Licence, but it doesn't allow that transmitter to be airborne. So even with a ham licence, you are still limited to 25mW on 5.8GHz video in Flying FPV.

If the video was frequency hopping and/or reduces the duty cycle from 100%, then that limit is higher.

For 2.4GHz video, the limit is 10mW. Again, if its capable of frequency hops and/or ensures the duty cycle is within limits (I forget the numbers, its in the ETSI specs - that I can't be bothered to open up!), that increases to 100mW. Hence why our RC equipment is allowed to transmit at that power output.

Si.

[Simon Chambers]

Oh and as many will know on here, running a business running FPV equipment is classed as commercial flights and so the legal requirements are different. I don't know what the current stand is, as its a hotly changing area - however I believe the CAA are considering bringing in Licencing requirements, complete with exams.

Also your BMFA insurance won't cover commercial RC flying anyway - FPV or not. So you'll need to make sure that your 3rd party business insurance (which you will need legally to run a business anyway) covers your rc activities.

Basically, if you want to start a business RC FPV, you have plenty of research to be doing...

Remember ignorance of the law is not seen as a valid reason to break the law!

Si.

[Ruprect Spode]

[scott finnie]

Posted by Pete B - Moderator on 26/02/2013 11:42:22:

Thanks, Alwyn, the remark was not intended for the majority of flyers and I'm sure these circumstances are causing you and your fellow modellers as much concern as anyone else. I've no doubt a similar situation exists in many other places, too.

I think the fact is, advancing technology has made it relatively straightforward for anyone to fly quite sophisticated R/C models and put them in potential conflict with the general public, without the necessity of being constrained by flying site or belonging within the formalised procedures of club flying.

This will probably have unfortunate consequences sooner or later and, meanwhile, the R/C modeller as we know it can do little but stand by and watch.

Gonzo, that makes sense. All I can say is that the regs quote 25mW unless you are a licence holder - I don't know if this just an arbitrary figure and what it really means - but adverts for the FatShark tend to draw attention to the need for a licence to use it in the UK. Whether holding a licence confers magical properties over the equipment, I know not...

I think Scott has been quite courageous in coming on here and revealing his predicament, knowing that he could have been inviting a good drubbing. I'm sure he has learnt something from his experience and, if this thread gives pause for thought for anyone considering doing likewise, then it has been worthwhile.

I wish Scott no ill and hope he achieves his ambition, provided it's within the rules and not to the detriment of anyone else.

Pete

Thanks for the few kind words,

Alwyn my past from the ages of 6 to 19 where flying within a club enviroment and made a few guest flights at you're club too, i only left the club as my partner who taught me to fly passed away , since then i had made repeated attempts to re-join but to no avail so i had no option but to travel from here and there to fulfill my wish to fly, i'm also currently teaching others to fly in the same good old fashioned approach that the saa has kept up, i have alot of respect for almost all aeromodellers, and wouldnt be at the stage of flying i am today if it wasnt for many patient people, i was just making this thread up for people who may be travelling down the same route to relise before they take the step that it will be difficult, i fly with 2 spotters and the master pilot is the one flying line of sight, my business isnt for rc fpv its more the case of its line of sight quadcopter flying but my customers can view there pictures through our laptops in there office, we use live video feed so they can get the perfect picture but the flying is done solely off line of sight, it hasnt been easy getting to where we are now but atleast were within the law, we have insurance and all certificates required, sadly i have to much to loose if i try to bend the law and nothings worth doing that

Scott

[Bandit]

Good luck Scott.

All this radio control stuff is nonsence anyhow. You all need to go back to free flight and control line!

[Olly P]

Scott - Can I ask some Questions about the original incident in the opening post:

1) During that incident did you have a spotter as recommended?

2) Was the Flight made with all required permissions (landowner etc)?

3) Was there any incident such as injury or damage?

4) Was the flight made for commercial or personal purposes?

5) is a legal action currently pending?

If you can give definitive answers to this then we might be able to offer our opinions, without the info I would be speculating as to the exact circumstances.

Have you spoken to the SAA/BMFA and gained there support/advise/input into the case?

Thanks

Olly

[Bandit]

Well put Olly