Gas turbine flying at your club site

[dbflyer]

Do any clubs out there have restrictions or even prohibit the flying of gas turbine powered models from your club field?

[Codename-John]

You need BMFA B cert for Turbine or aircraft over 7 kg at mine, other than that its usual club rules that apply

[Bucksboy]

We don't allow them, our site just doesn't have the airspace that these models can cover. We have close ish neighbours that we are keen not to upset. Members that have these sort of models have to join other, nearby clubs.

[Simon Chambers]

Our club allows them and has no restrictions (apart from no-fly area's, etc) - except you need an A-test to fly solo. However there is only one flying site now (out of a total of 4 sites) that really is suitable for them. There isn't that many turbine flyers that fly at our club, and those that do rarely get them out.

A bit further down the motorway is a club with a concrete runway which I know has turbine flyers. However their club has some rather stringent rules such as needing a B-test for jets and the aircraft+pilot has to be signed off by a committee member. Oh and all flying aircraft have to fly circuits in the same direction.

Si.

Edited By Simon Chambers on 18/04/2013 17:26:29

[GrahamC]

The only restrictions are the standard ones about having a 'B' certificate and then are to do with the surrounding crops. No jets allowed while there is a flammable crop in the surrounding fields.

Our site is a reasonable size, but in practice is not really suitable for the faster jets. We have a boomerang that flies from the site.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

TBH I don't consider possessing a B to be a particularly stringent requirement. Committee member sign-off? Perhaps unusual but given the potential for instant conflagration and the potential energy in a 10kg 200mph projectile maybe not a bad idea if applied fairly.

We looked quite seriously at allowing jets a few years ago - Ali Mashinchi came along with a Hawk to give a demonstration as part of our feasibility study - but as we have a relatively small field surrounded by arable land and woods (housing a very expensive shoot) and a low ceiling we decided against jet operation. The general membership accepted the decision quite happily and the one member with a jet was quite happy (he was part of the study team) to operate it elswhere - especially as his Boomerang was only intended as a short-lived stepping stone/engine test bed to an F104.

[Devon Flyer]

'B' Certificate required at our club for turbines or any other model over 7Kgs.

[Old Geezer]

Definitely not with us, Golf Course on two sides, sports pitches abutt us on the other two sides and a major road about 400 yards away. Common sense.

[Simon Chambers]

Here is the 'other' clubs rules I was talking about:

North Wilts Model Aircraft Club Rules - found on their homepage

Those rules maybe useful if you're thinking of putting rules in.

As they have a tarmac runway, I would imagine they get a lot of Jet jocks.

Si.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Chris Marshall]

Knowing something, though not all of what is behind your question Dave, I find I am somewhat dissapointed by a recent editorial comment in one magazine, which criticises some people IMHO in a somewhat biased and partisan way, who are to the best of my knowledge staying strictly within correct procedures. What you seem to be doing here is to research experience from other clubs and individuals in a measured and neutral manner. It is a pity that the editorial could not have waited until the matter was resolved internally. Any comment would then have been clearly seen as impartial. As it is it does not appear to be so.

Edited By Chris Marshall on 21/04/2013 23:29:17

[Blue Max]

Club committe to sign of a model - joke, how does been on a club committee give you the technical jnowledge to judge a model...

[Ultymate]

Posted by Blue Max on 04/05/2013 11:25:25:

Club committe to sign of a model - joke, how does been on a club committee give you the technical jnowledge to judge a model...

What knowledge do you have of the relevant committee's technical investigative capabilities ?

[Blue Max]

Quite alot actually and why I dont submit my models for review by people with no knowledge of the types of models that I fly. I have access to three very large areas of concrete runways with no obstructions at all and guess what, no club committee and no clubs on these sites.

[Erfolg]

I am a member of two clubs.

I fly most frequently at one where there is no specific ban on turbine aircraft, although there is a self imposed rule that no IC models can be flown. I would imagine that any attempt to fly gas turbine models would have a quick vote and a ban.

The second club, I have no idea, only just joined.

At present I am attempting to gain an A cert. This process has brought home to me the vast difference in club rules, which are probably a consequence of the differing model grouping flown at the two clubs. From the few gas turbines I have observed, it seems that they have there own characteristics/requirements for sensible operation.

My first club flies essentially two groups of models, both electric. The first is electric gliders or traditional gliders. The second is small electric models, in the general classification Park Flyers, which are about 50" max, more frequently 39" span and all up weight of about 1kg. The second group requires that the models are kept close, to be able to see. All landings are along the lines of glider flyers, as hitting a landing circle, or landing a close parallel, the emphasis on fine control and precision.

The second club, models all seem to be +50" span, many much larger, motive power mostly IC with a smattering of electric. Even the electrics are biggish to big. The shear size requires that all landings are at +50yds from the flight line. The models are flown much further away and higher. Any idea of keeping close, is seen as a combination of hogging the landing strip, and potentially to close to the flight line.

I would expect that clubs would tend to have operational rules which take account of the operational and safety issues of the model types. Thinking jets, they are pretty fast, pretty heavy, quite big and with a particular noise. All of which will impact on the necessary rules for both safe flying and community relationships.

From the above, I would expect that many clubs would have bans or specific operational requirements.

[Blue Max]

As I own a national transport company I have two large depots and each has large areas of perfect tarmac, both are well out of the way and flying of any kind will not disrupt anyone as the nearest house is over one mile away and it is mine.

I allowed a model club to use the third, again an ex RAF site with a runway, the hassle that I had from them with back room politics was not worth it, too many people who actually had never experinced what they were judging trying to contorl others who had experince, in the end the club was told to leave the site.

Oh, one last point, all three sites have planning permission for model flying

[Ultymate]

Posted by Blue Max on 04/05/2013 12:40:12:

As I own a national transport company I have two large depots and each has large areas of perfect tarmac, both are well out of the way and flying of any kind will not disrupt anyone as the nearest house is over one mile away and it is mine.

I allowed a model club to use the third, again an ex RAF site with a runway, the hassle that I had from them with back room politics was not worth it, too many people who actually had never experinced what they were judging trying to contorl others who had experince, in the end the club was told to leave the site.

Oh, one last point, all three sites have planning permission for model flying

Some of us actually like the comaraderie of club flying, you obviously are a loner, your choice

[Blue Max]

Must be, must ask the other 6 guys who fly on the sites, oh, and the number of others who ask to fly on the sites

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Well, there you have the difference. You own your sites and if you should lose your planning permission for any reason that you bring about by your actions then it's no business of anyone else's.

The average club operates at the whim of a landowner - or, as we're fortunate enough to do, own their own land. The membership elect a committee to oversee the day to day running of their club and it's the committee's responsibility to look after the interests of the club. A major part of this is ensuring good relations with landowners and neighbours and avoiding problems with noise or planning issues.

If the membership, either directly or via the committee (and it is their own fault if they collectively allow bad rules) decide that the committee members are to approve models and pilots then I see nothing wrong in this.

In my own club, committee members are empowered to conduct noise tests and a nominated list of members with good experience of building and operating models conduct basic airframe checks on all models before they are operated from the site. There are no exceptions - from the Chairman or Area Chief Examiner to recently joined member, we all, to the best of my knowledge, accept the validity of these checks and happily submit our models to examination.

Edited By Martin Harris on 04/05/2013 13:19:56

[Pete B]

Just a reminder to keep this constructive,guys, ta....

Pete

[Erfolg]

Hmm. Yes I can see a potential basis for the objection to a committee deciding which and what models can be flown.

To easy for cronyism to be ever present.

IMHO it is far better to have a set of rules, such as:-

1. Modeller to hold a B certificate, with perhaps some additional endorsement
2. The model to be subjected to a form of inspection/certification carried out against independently evaluated adherence to a set of criteria.

The use of committee of good buddies, however experienced, an assessment based on their whims on the day, or their loose feelings/opinions etc. Does have the smell or taste of fair play.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Sorry Erfolg but I don't see what's effectively different in your suggestions, Why should cronyism come into pointing out a potential failure area which could cost someone a model - or worse? The normal response is for the inspector to receive grateful thanks for spotting a problem!

The only critereon should be whether the appointed people are respected within the club as people with sufficient experience to give a reasonable assessment of a model's fitness to fly. The system won't be infallible but I'd wager that more models have been saved from disaster on their first flight or two, than people having any feeling of being hard done by because they couldn't fly with a loose control surface, 2mm clevis on a 2-56 threaded rod, missing servo arm screw, loose fin etc. etc. which our rudimentary checks have discovered...and actually, most problems can be resolved on the day anyway.

To get properly back onto thread, if our club could allow gas turbines then we would probably consider limiting the people authorised to test them in the same way we do for over 7 kg models - which, to my knowledge, has never been questioned.

[Erfolg]

The virtue of processes which are based on universally applicable to all rules/standards, is fairness. I can accept that many, if not most committees could be fair, though some would not. The main failure is that it suggests, personal judgements, which could vary with circumstance. Rather than a set of logical rules and requirements applied without favour.

The problem with pals, is that those who are not part of the magic circle is that from time to time different standards may be applied to some, will that be fair or reasonable.

I understood that the principles of the inspection of models over 7kg, was that of set standards applied universally to all, irrespective of who you are, or know.

I can not see why anyone could have issues with with any system/process which is fair and can be seen to be fair, to all.

I can see that with more gas turbine models being flown, that some universality of criteria to identify suitable flying sites, skills necessary to fly such a model and an inspection process of models will be necessary ( at least in principle being desirable). Particularly if models continue to increase in size, speed etc.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Erfolg on 04/05/2013 23:39:00:

I can not see why anyone could have issues with with any system/process which is fair and can be seen to be fair, to all.

I couldn't agree more.