John Privett Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I'm not sure what extra opinion Fast Lad could add that hasn't already been reported in Ben's post at 08/02/2014 22:12:30. The suspicions that some of us expressed earlier were that a malicious third-party had somehow become involved without the knowledge of Fast Lad. That is now seen not to be the case. Clearly it is up to Fast Lad how they handle sales, and if certain features of a sale trigger 'alarm bells' then they have to decide; do they ask for more information that will - if supplied - indicate that the customer is most likely genuine, or do they just send the goodse anyway and hope that they make a small profit out of it rather than a big loss? Edited By John Privett on 09/02/2014 14:08:55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prop Nut Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I wouldn't do business with them on this basis, but that's just because I'm a Grumpy Old Git who despises the Big Brother world imposed on us by 'those who (think they) know better'. Royal Mail are very good at losing things, and copies of your passport and a recent utility bill with your name and address on are tailor-made for a fraudster. Email, also, is not secure. I've often bought items costing more than Ben's spend, as a first-time buyer, with shipment to my office, rather than billing, address but never been asked for this level of information. MasterCard and Visa both have an additional layer of protection for online purchases, where you have to enter a password before final approval - that should suffice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avtur Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I can understand a business wanting to ensure they are dealing with a genuine customer, that makes sense, but for me there are two questions. What process does the credit card company require, given that passport details are not normally required for an internet transaction I have to assume this is something the retailer has added; but why has the retailer gone to this extra step when clearly other retailers don't. Surely there is process to be followed which ensures that any subsequent losses sit with the card company, not the retailer; usually it is something like 'Verified by Visa; what is the reason for extra steps. ' Once the retailer has these extra details then that gives them a lot more information towards the customer's personal identity profile; for me the big question is how is this stored? What is the retailers data protection policy ? What security does the retailer have in place to ensure that those details are kept secure? When asked for ID (where a copy is taken) I have asked the question how/where do you store those details? What is the policy for disposal ... e.g. are copies just binned or are they shredded? The answers I have received often don't inspire confidence, and I have walked away from transactions because of this. Edited By avtur on 09/02/2014 14:27:39 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben M Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Posted by Essjay on 09/02/2014 13:24:21: Posted by Ben M on 09/02/2014 13:12:44: I would like to have other opinions. Thanks. Ben Ben, I think we'd all like to see "Fast-Lad's" opinion on it!. Any chance of any of them being a member here? Steve Hi Steve, Well, the shop's owner knows about this thread. I sent the link to him on one of my emails. I guess he has seen it. I cannot tell if he may want to collaborate. He has been very kind reading and answering two long emails on Saturday. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben M Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Posted by John Privett on 09/02/2014 13:54:18: I'm not sure what extra opinion Fast Lad could add that hasn't already been reported in Ben's post at 08/02/2014 22:12:30. The suspicions that some of us expressed earlier were that a malicious third-party had somehow become involved without the knowledge of Fast Lad. That is now seen not to be the case. Clearly it is up to Fast Lad how they handle sales, and if certain features of a sale trigger 'alarm bells' then they have to decide; do they ask for more information that will - if supplied - indicate that the customer is most likely genuine, or do they just send the goodse anyway and hope that they make a small profit out of it rather than a big loss? Edited By John Privett on 09/02/2014 14:08:55 Hi Jonh, Please don't take me wrong. I'm not discussing about the right of the shop to protect itself. All of us should agree about it because we don't want shops to close and we don't want prices to increase due to fraud. This discussion is about what should be the way to guarantee the security of both the seller and the buyer. Putting the buyer in risk to protect the seller doesn't make sense. Sending a copy of your documentation to a small business is far from being a good practice. I don't know if we could ask a police branch to certify the identity so that the shop could be safe without a copy of our documentation. Or maybe the shop could provide a different way of payment that reduce the risk of fraud. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Marsh Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 You can always move to a "posher" area... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Whybrow Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I agree with prop-nut, I would consider that neither the Royal Mail or email would be secure enough to send copies of a passport; what are they planning on doing with the passport anyway? It doesn't have your address and the photo won't be of any help to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Jones 2 Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Posted by Martin Whybrow on 09/02/2014 16:26:56: I agree with prop-nut, I would consider that neither the Royal Mail or email would be secure enough to send copies of a passport; what are they planning on doing with the passport anyway? It doesn't have your address and the photo won't be of any help to them. They don't need to do anything with the passport. Someone making a purchase on a stolen card would be very unlikely to have the card holders passport, that is all they need to know to judge the purchase is above board. Also,it is best to live in a proper house rather than in a block of flats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolstonFlyer Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 If you are looking for a transmitter and a simulator, why not try a different internet retailer? I have always had very good service from Kings Lynn Model Shop and payment is just a normal online visa form, no other strange security requirements. Radio's Flight Simulators Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben M Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Posted by WolstonFlyer on 09/02/2014 16:37:58: If you are looking for a transmitter and a simulator, why not try a different internet retailer? I have always had very good service from Kings Lynn Model Shop and payment is just a normal online visa form, no other strange security requirements. Radio's Flight Simulators Thanks WolstonFlyer, I appreciate it. I have sent emails to: http://www.kingslynnmodelshop.co.uk http://servoshop.co.uk http://alshobbies.com http://www.quickuk.eu Thanks for giving me references about Kings Lynn, I'll take it in account. Any info about these or other shops would be very appreciated. Edited By Ben M on 09/02/2014 16:56:27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Privett Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Ben, the four you've emailed are all well-established and have good reputations. I wouldn't have any hesitation using any of them - and in fact I have ordered from them all over the past few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prop Nut Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Another vote from me for Kings Lynn Model Shop. I buy almost exclusively online, from a handful of retailers who give the best possible service, and KLMS is one of the first I check with when I need something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iqon Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Think i would do the same and not provide any additional information and cancel order , dont like giving information out at best of times, kingslynn is my favorite shop at moment and leeds, hobbystore, als,innwoods and many more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Rothwell Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 ies out iPosted by avtur on 09/02/2014 14:22:49: I can understand a business wanting to ensure they are dealing with a genuine customer, that makes sense, but for me there are two questions. What process does the credit card company require, given that passport details are not normally required for an internet transaction I have to assume this is something the retailer has added; but why has the retailer gone to this extra step when clearly other retailers don't. Surely there is process to be followed which ensures that any subsequent losses sit with the card company, not the retailer; usually it is something like 'Verified by Visa; what is the reason for extra steps. ' Once the retailer has these extra details then that gives them a lot more information towards the customer's personal identity profile; for me the big question is how is this stored? What is the retailers data protection policy ? What security does the retailer have in place to ensure that those details are kept secure? When asked for ID (where a copy is taken) I have asked the question how/where do you store those details? What is the policy for disposal ... e.g. are copies just binned or are they shredded? The answers I have received often don't inspire confidence, and I have walked away from transactions because of this. Edited By avtur on 09/02/2014 14:27:39 avtur , in answer to your question about collected data All Retail merchants ( whether physical or online) have to be PCI DSS (Payment card industry data security standard) Compliant and depending on how the merchant carry out their transactions (F2F, CNP or online) depends on the level of security that they have to have above and beyond the minimum standard and which course affects their transaction rates, transaction rates are based on risk of fraud Generally, if a merchant accepts a credit card for a purchase and the card is physically present, the liability for loss fall on the card issuing financial institution, not the retail merchant. However, under Card Association rules, the risk of loss falls on the merchant in all CNP ( Customer Not Present transactions). What this means is that the full value of a CNP purchase will be charged back to the merchant if the credit card turns out to be a fraud. If the merchant is only making a modest margin on the sale of expensive items, even a small number of chargebacks for fraud can be devastating. Obviously this company has grabbed the bull by the horns and implemented this policy because of previous fraudulent events, although how they can expect to expand their online presence/ customer base by using this policy is a question only they can answer. David Edited By Davwik on 09/02/2014 18:24:06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben M Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Thanks for your clarification David, That is something I didn't know before I talked to the shop owner. I thought it was the bank the responsible of identifying the card's owner. The bank (at least mine) takes so many precautions to validate the identity by asking so many codes. Edited By Ben M on 09/02/2014 21:35:31 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Grigg Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Sorry for your problems Ben.Ive never had a problem like yours and agree with you that the shop are doing themselves no good in getting you as a customer.Its a hard job finding customers nowadays and your a valuable assett.I dealt with Galaxy models in Ipswich,never met them all on the telephone and they earnt loads of money from me.Still closed down.As you correctly state,the banks do all the checks on behalf of retailers so there is no reason for retailers to be over zealous. I was in retail and the only thing I did when someone bought a car over the phone was ask for the credit card to be brought along when collecting the car.It was always refused,because it was a scam.,but it was also for a couple of grand car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Privett Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Posted by Stephen Grigg on 09/02/2014 22:44:03: As you correctly state,the banks do all the checks on behalf of retailers so there is no reason for retailers to be over zealous. But not for 'customer-not-present' sales, according to Davwick... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 It seems a pity that the shop has taken this decision, but in all fairness to them (given that they are reasonable people) I can only assume that its the result of being "stung" once too often on their part. But I can also see that from your point of view the request - particularly for passport details - does seem a little extreme. I feel that maybe they need to rethink that a bit! But this doesn't get you any further forward. Can I suggest something that might get you and them "off on a better footing"? Suggest to them that they put a small charge through on your card - any amount of their choosing less than five pounds - but they don't tell you how much. You then check your on-line bank account and ring them back with the exact amount of the charge levied. This tells them you are the legitimate card user - or at least provides very strong evidence to that effect. Should take less than a couple of hours and should satisfy both sides, you get the small charge back as discount off your first order. This is the validation technique Palpay use for registering bamk accounts and they are pretty savy about fraud. Just a thought to move you forward - Fast Lad is a good company you will want to deal with them so anything that facilitates that is a good thing I believe. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben M Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 10/02/2014 10:49:18: Suggest to them that they put a small charge through on your card - any amount of their choosing less than five pounds - but they don't tell you how much. You then check your on-line bank account and ring them back with the exact amount of the charge levied. This tells them you are the legitimate card user - or at least provides very strong evidence to that effect. Should take less than a couple of hours and should satisfy both sides, you get the small charge back as discount off your first order. This is the validation technique Palpay use for registering bamk accounts and they are pretty savy about fraud. Thanks BEB for your contribution! I think it is amazing. This solution would work fine for me even though it may take longer than few hours as I cannot see the card charges through Internet until some time later. I only can see the current balance and available balance. I would need to ask in my branch for that information. But even if it takes one week for me would be fine. Anyway it would be for my next shopping as I have already place my order somewhere else. Let see if I am luckier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Chaddock Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Ben M This has been a very interesting thread. I do hope you will let us all know what you have bought and the success (or not!) you have had with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben M Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 Thank Simon, And thanks to all who have taken part of this thread. All of you have helped me a lot to see where I was right and where I was wrong. At the beginning I was so worried about where my details had ended up and your comments about the respectability of the shop calmed me down and even changed my mind about "not buying there any more". I apologize if something I have said made anybody feel uncomfortable. It wasn't my intention. Special thanks to BEB who came across with a solution that may be useful for all online shops that want to implement it. Special thanks also to Davwik, who has illustrated us with information about the risks the online shops face every day to supply us our toys. We have learned a lot and we can help other people that, like me, face a scary situation like this. Maybe just reading this thread they may feel better. J I think this community is great. Simon, I have bought a Spektrum DX8 and a Phoenix V4 simulator. I want to practice a little before I try to fly my TREX 450L Dominator which will be my next shopping. I am very interested in learning how to assemble it. So I’ve got a very exciting way to go through (and many question to do J). I will let you all know about my shopping. I am so excited. Looking forward having my new toy. J Ben Edited By Ben M on 10/02/2014 18:57:55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Jones 2 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 10/02/2014 10:49:18: .... Suggest to them that they put a small charge through on your card - any amount of their choosing less than five pounds - but they don't tell you how much. You then check your on-line bank account and ring them back with the exact amount of the charge levied. This tells them you are the legitimate card user - or at least provides very strong evidence to that effect. Should take less than a couple of hours and should satisfy both sides, you get the small charge back as discount off your first order. This is the validation technique Palpay use for registering bamk accounts and they are pretty savy about fraud. ...... BEB. A slightly similar system; When I buy big items from screw fix they sometimes charge me one penny, and also send the order reference number to my mobile. I get the penny back when I collect the goods Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Chaddock Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Ben M You posted under the beginners section. Does this mean you are a beginner to helicopters? I am no heli expert by any means but I am not sure the Trex 450L Dominator is a beginners machine. I am sure others far more qualified can comment.. My apologies if you are already an expert and can fly like the pilot in the video but every time I see a display like that I just stand and stare in complete awe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben M Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 Posted by Simon Chaddock on 11/02/2014 15:13:37: Ben M You posted under the beginners section. Does this mean you are a beginner to helicopters? I am no heli expert by any means but I am not sure the Trex 450L Dominator is a beginners machine. I am sure others far more qualified can comment.. Yes Simon, I am a beginner. You have touch a very interesting topic. Probably one of the first and main questions all beginners face. This discussion may be very interesting for other beginners and also for experts who can share their experience. I think there may be other thread about this (I'll check), if not I'll create one to talk about it. It worths it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben M Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 I am very happy. I have my new transmitter and simulator. Next step will be learning how to use it. I'll be busy for some time. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.