Internet shop ask for documentation to validate a card

[Ben M]

Hi all,

I am beginner and today I got surprised by an issue with a Internet Hobby Shop. I would like to comment about it to see if it is normal what happened.

Yesterday I placed an order on http://www.fast-lad.co.uk. This morning I received an e-mail saying that they could not send the order until I provided copy of my passport and copy of an utility bill with the delivery address. The reason they provided to ask about it is to validate my card ownership.

I am used to buy through Internet and this is the first time I get such a requirement to buy something. There are several things I don´t understand:

1. Why they don't inform before doing the order and they do it after charging the card and starting the order process?

2. The bank takes care of authenticating the card's owners so the shop do not have to do anything.

3. The shop charged my card when I placed the order so what kind of validation they need to do afterwards?

4. Is there any regulation that force the RC shops UK to ask for Photo ID (driving license or passport)? And what about copy of a home bill?

I will appreciate any comments about this issue. If this is something normal please let me know.

Thanks in advance,

Benjamin

[David Rothwell]

Think about whats going on here, anyone who asks for that info to sell you something aint legit and it could be a case of someone trying to steal your identity, having a little knowledge of how these scams work, it would seem to me that the website could well have been hacked ring your bank and express your concerns and make them aware of this request, also try and contact the supplier and inform them asap.

Take action, after all if its legit all you get is a red face not a stolen identity!!!!!!

[iqon]

sound like a con to me

[John Privett]

Hmm.. I have heard of something similar happening in the past - but not recently.

As for fast-lad.co.uk then they are legit. They have a real-world 'bricks and mortar' shop, just off the M1 near Barnsley. I've stopped there several times to buy heli fuel in the past when I've been en-route up/down the M1. I can't imagine they'd knowingly be involved in something dubious.

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Ben this just sounds very odd to me. If I were you, I think I'd phone Fast-lad.

I just have a suspicion that your order details may have been intercepted by a third party, who are now trying to find extra identity details out. Maybe this is part of an identity fraud scam?

I have a feeling that fast-lad may know nothing about this, they may even have sent your order out by now.

[Dane Crosby]

I would immediately contact my credit card issuer and explain everything as you describe. They would certainly not want the passport information etc to be publicly linked to a card transaction. The fraud opportunities would be massive. You must also contact the vendor and find out if this was a genuine email from them. If not then warn them to take action as required by their bank. Cancel the order in any case and ask for a refund either from the shop or the credit card company. Once the dust has settled you can attempt a re-order or shop elsewhere. There is just too much card fraud and identity theft around so don't take a any chances with this issue.

Good luck with this Ben.

Edited By Dane Crosby on 07/02/2014 22:24:36

[Pete B]

Might be an obvious comment but don't click on any links in the email you've received. If you want to contact Fast Lad, who are an entirely reputable company in my experience, use your browser address bar to get to the site.

Sounds most suspicious, as the guys above have said...

Pete

Edited By Pete B - Moderator on 07/02/2014 22:23:44

[Ben M]

Hi all,

First of all thanks for your time.

The first thing I did this morning was to reply the mail (it was the official mail of the shop) explaining my disagreement, canceling the order and asking for the refund. After a while without answer I call them (using their site phone) and it seemed that they new about the policy and they told me they were going to refund me today. I ask them to confirm the refund by mail but they didn't do it.

I have checked my bank account and there is a lock on my balance for the order´s amount but the money is still there. The lock was made yesterday when I placed the order. I have called my bank and they told me I have to wait some days to see if the money is finally taken from the account or not. It seems that the process of cancelling the order may take some time.

As per my understanding the shop knows about this information request and that is why I am so surprised. I was thinking that may be is something normal in the RC world. They said in their e-mail that they needed to do the check because it was my first order.

Now at least I know that this is not normal. If someone else have bought something from this web site, please let me know if you were required to send additional details.

Thanks again,

Ben

[John Privett]

Ben, did you by any chance ask for the goods to be delivered to a different address to the card's registered address? Many (most?) retailers would refuse to do that, but some might if supplied with some sort of "reassurance".

I have bought stuff from fast-lad on several occasions, but only dealing in person as I was passing them at the time.

[Ben M]

Hi John,

The delivery address was the same as the billing address and the card address. And I was paying for the delivery so they were taking no risk at all.

Is it possible that this is a new policy in the company? Is the shop trying to avoid that someone still a credit card (and its security info) and use it to buy RC goods?

It does't make any sense. Crazy.

Ben

[Pete B]

Many online retailers will only send a first order to the cardholder's registered address - this is a condition of many card issuers. Have you asked for it to be sent to a different address, by chance?

If that is the case, I can understand a utility bill to confirm address but not so sure about the passport...

Re the 'frozen' payment. I wouldn't worry too much about that -I had a similar situation after i used my UK card abroad when some phantom purchases (from legit organisations) appeared on my account. The payment was not confirmed by the organisations concerned and dropped off the statement after several days - it can take up to a week.

Pete

Ah, just seen your reply - forget my first paragraph!

Edited By Pete B - Moderator on 07/02/2014 23:10:40

[Andy Ennis]

Posted by John Privett on 07/02/2014 22:57:22:

Ben, did you by any chance ask for the goods to be delivered to a different address to the card's registered address? Many (most?) retailers would refuse to do that, but some might if supplied with some sort of "reassurance"

John

I never have goods delivered to my home address, everything I buy is delivered to my brother's home (in fact just picked a parcsl up today!) - never had any problem

[John Privett]

Posted by Ben M on 07/02/2014 23:03:56:

Is it possible that this is a new policy in the company? Is the shop trying to avoid that someone still a credit card (and its security info) and use it to buy RC goods?

It's possible I guess! Maybe they've been "stung" once too often by fraudulent transactions? I'm not sure how a trader stands with the card companies if they accept a card payment - with all the correct details - that later turns out to be a stolen card... Was this a large order?

[John Privett]

Posted by Andy Ennis on 07/02/2014 23:14:19:

Posted by John Privett on 07/02/2014 22:57:22:

Ben, did you by any chance ask for the goods to be delivered to a different address to the card's registered address? Many (most?) retailers would refuse to do that, but some might if supplied with some sort of "reassurance"

John

I never have goods delivered to my home address, everything I buy is delivered to my brother's home (in fact just picked a parcsl up today!) - never had any problem

I think that's down to the individual retailer. Some will send to alternative addresses, but usually only after you've "proved yourself" by placing at least one order to the card address.

[Ben M]

Posted by John Privett on 07/02/2014 23:15:25:

Posted by Ben M on 07/02/2014 23:03:56:

Was this a large order?

It was around £290.

[Max50]

I think the mistake here is that they have charged the card before asking for details. I would have thought you would check these details first before doing so.

I've ordered from FastLad years ago,and they were great then.

[Allan Bennett]

When you phoned them, did they tell you why they asked for those details?

I have placed internet orders with Fast Lad many times, without such a request from them. Come to think of it though, I've used the PayPal payment option on most, if not all, of them.

[Steve Colman]

I've used Fast Lad many times and never had a single problem with them.......always great service.

And, all of my orders have been made from Spain, via a Spanish bank and Credit card.

[Stephen Grigg]

I think youve done the right thing cancelling the order.Its normal for the card amount to be frozen for 10 days in your account to ensure its there when request is received to withdraw it.I had a lady oncw whip her card out of the machine before transaction completed.It was for £5500 and she had to come back 10 days later when the money was available again and do the transaction again.

[Ben M]

Posted by Max50 on 08/02/2014 07:40:32:

I think the mistake here is that they have charged the card before asking for details. I would have thought you would check these details first before doing so.

I've ordered from FastLad years ago,and they were great then.

There are two big mistakes here:

1. The most important one is asking for details that are not necessary for the transaction. If we, as consumers, accepted that any Internet shop ask for our identification documents then we would be accepting that many companies (big, small, well known or unknown) had databases with our identification documents. In that situation, anyone of them could use that information forge us. We should think that companies can be sold and bought so a good company today (with a very good identities database) may be sold in the future with all our documents. This is just unacceptable.

2. If they can't send the order without this information, then they should never allow me to place the order without it. They should not only inform but also block the check out process. Even the should not allow to register in the web site without this. If a customer don't want to accept this rule it doesn't make sense that he/she provides other details.

I had heard good opinions about this company so that is why I wanted to try it. Sadly my opinion now is not so good.

[Ben M]

Posted by Allan Bennett on 08/02/2014 08:20:55:

When you phoned them, did they tell you why they asked for those details?

I have placed internet orders with Fast Lad many times, without such a request from them. Come to think of it though, I've used the PayPal payment option on most, if not all, of them.

When I phoned them they did't say anything about that. I didn't see any interest to keep the order going forward. We talked just about the cancellation and the refund. They said they were going to do it during the day and they would confirm it with an e-mail, but I never received that e-mail so I don't know if they did it already.

I'm going to send another email to ask about their reasons and about the current status of the order.

[Ben M]

As I mentioned in a previous post I contacted with Fast Lad to ask about the reasons why they ask for such information.

Very kindly Chris Walton, owner of Fast Lad, attended all my doubts through several emails. I thanks him for the time spent.

The reason why they ask for that information is because my order matches several conditions that raise an alert in their system:

1. I was a first time customer
2. My order was of a high value (£280)
3. I was shipping to a flat or apartment
4. I was in a postcode where they have had fraudulent transactions in the past.

Chris explained to me that if a thief buys something with somebody else card then the shop loses the money so they have to be cautious about that. He also said that the above mentioned conditions define a suspicious profile. With this rules if you live in West Kensington (where most of the homes are flats or apartments) and you try to buy a transmitter and a simulator then you automatically become suspicious. It is hard to accept it.

I understand the shop’s situation but I still believe that they can’t ask for copy of identity documentation. As per my understanding only the police or the bank can ask for it. Even the bank and the police always recommend not to provide such information through Internet. I will try to get legal information about this. Does anybody know about this kind of legal issues or where can we find more information?

I have refused to provide any copy of my identity documentation and I have asked for other means to prove my legitimacy. If the shop do not reconsider their policy I won’t be accepted as a client. Quite frustrating. Bad start for a beginner (this is the first thing I try to buy).

Well, at this point I appeal to your help once again. If you can recommend other shop I will appreciate it.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Ben

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Ben M on 08/02/2014 22:12:30:

As I mentioned in a previous post I contacted with Fast Lad to ask about the reasons why they ask for such information.

Very kindly Chris Walton, owner of Fast Lad, attended all my doubts through several emails. I thanks him for the time spent.

The reason why they ask for that information is because my order matches several conditions that raise an alert in their system:

1. I was a first time customer
2. My order was of a high value (£280)
3. I was shipping to a flat or apartment
4. I was in a postcode where they have had fraudulent transactions in the past.

Chris explained to me that if a thief buys something with somebody else card then the shop loses the money so they have to be cautious about that. He also said that the above mentioned conditions define a suspicious profile. With this rules if you live in West Kensington (where most of the homes are flats or apartments) and you try to buy a transmitter and a simulator then you automatically become suspicious. It is hard to accept it.

I understand the shop’s situation but I still believe that they can’t ask for copy of identity documentation.

I'm not so sure Ben. They don't have to sell you goods and if they bear the costs of a fraudulent order, this is probably money they can't afford to lose in a competitive market with relatively small mark-ups. If they ask to see some proof of identity in order to reduce the possibility of dealing with a fraudster (it's not fair to expect them to simply accept your assurance that you're a fine upstanding citizen - the best con men are the most convincing...) then I would consider that prudent.

It's then up to you to decide whether you find their request reasonable. I think you're being a little hard on what is probably quite a small business - there's an old saying in the model world that opening a model shop is the best way to make a small fortune...

...out of a large one!

[Ben M]

Hi Martin,

May be you are right. I agree the shop has to be cautious to avoid becoming victim of fraud. There is no doubt about that.

The thing is that I am not used to be asked for this information when I buy through Internet. Even the people in the forum were suspicious when I described the situation. I have been warned so much about all risks related to provide personal details when shopping through Internet. May be I have become too cautions about it.

I would like to have other opinions.

Thanks.

Ben

[Essjay]

Posted by Ben M on 09/02/2014 13:12:44:

I would like to have other opinions.

Thanks.

Ben

Ben, I think we'd all like to see "Fast-Lad's" opinion on it!. Any chance of any of them being a member here?

Steve