Model Flying Insurance. Not BMFA

Bearair · February 27, 2014

As above really. I knew a company last year but they are not doing it anymore.

Thanks

Bearair · February 27, 2014

Sorted Thanks

For anyone interested insurance available from FPV UK £7.95 for six months here

John F · February 27, 2014

It would be be interesting to compare BMFA insurance with this. There are precious few details from the FPV website on what is covered.

Edited By John F on 27/02/2014 22:23:27

John Privett · February 28, 2014

It says on that site, "...and benefit from £5m public liability insurance for all of your RC flying (excluding turbines and engines over 40cc)."

So the bits they do mention seem to fall well short of the BMFA's cover. Whether you think the BMFA's £25m is necessary or not there might be places you want to fly that insist on that level of cover.

February 28, 2014

If you are considering flying at any club sites or meetings, you may find that bmfa insurance is req'd

Jez Harris 1 · February 28, 2014

Hi,

I should imagine with the current litagious climate, it wouldnt take much to exceed £5m as a payout.

Also the BMFA fees give you loads more than just insurance - assistance with flying site problems etc.

Jez

Peter Christy · February 28, 2014

A lot of competitions take place on military airfields. If your model happened to crash through a hangar roof and onto a Tornado, £5M probably wouldn't even cover re-painting it! As others have said, the BMFA insurance also covers quite a lot of stuff that isn't normally covered - member to member, for instance. Its something that really isn't worth economising on!

--

Pete

Ultymate · February 28, 2014

Is this a case of just being "anti BMFA" or what ? From personal experience I can vouch for the validity of their insurance having seen it in action. The cost is relatively speaking in comparison to the other costs of the hobby of little significance, just asking

John F · February 28, 2014

I think most comments have been pro BMFA insurance considering the lack of info and relatively low insurance cover from FPV.

Delta Foxtrot · February 28, 2014

Another potential consideration is how conversant insurance companies advocates are with the realities of model flying and safe practices.

I seem to remember people at our club mentioning that they used to have non-BMFA insurance and that when an incident did occur the legal man did not have a clue flying models and this made life difficult. This should not be an issue through the BMFA insurance.

dave

Allan Bennett · February 28, 2014

The club I fly with has bought its insurance through a broker since the beginning (founded in 1938; not sure when they started insuring). 3rd party cover is £5m and, as mentioned above, it might not be enough if you happen to crash on a military site. But would £25m cover it either? If you think about it, motor insurance 3rd-party is unlimited, so why shouldn't our insurance be too, for peace of mind? Since the chances of an over-£25-million RC flying accident happening must statistically be low, I wonder what the increase in premium would need to be to cover it.

Any actuaries out there?

Bearair · March 1, 2014

I cannot really see anybody flying on a military site unless they are a member of the BMFA and if you wish to fly in competitions or fly'ins then because the BMFA do not allow other insurances this would not be suitable for you.

However if , as the majority of toy plane flyers do, you will be flying at school playing fields, farmers fields even your own back garden then the above insurance makes a lot of sense. Why pay twice as much to join an organisation set up for and run directly for the benefit of clubs. Toy plane flying has never been so easy to learn, in fact in an afternoon you can easily learn the basics with the advancements in electronics. Some people do not want to except this, I think because it upsets their sense of kudos, it was very hard for them to learn so it should be hard for others. If Joe Blogs can go out and buy an all in one system for about a hundred quid and because of the electronics fly it that afternoon what then for the club "expert"? I have seen so many posts about "not the right sort", there are even clubs where you have to attend an interview to make sure you are the "right type" "Old boy what what"

Anyway for people wishing to go it alone with toy aeroplanes I hope a few of you will advise them of this insurance, it must be better to have a mere £5million cover than none at all..

TTFN

Roger

Edited By Bearair on 01/03/2014 08:29:33

Phil 9 · March 1, 2014

it is good there are alternatives. I have BMFA insurance and Im happy with it but I don't like the idea of the BMFA having a monopoly on model insurance.

John F · March 1, 2014

The problem for me, bearair, is the total vacuum when it comes to details of the insurance. There is absolutely nothing to go on. There may be huge holes in the policy for all I know, with a list of exclusions as long as my arm.

My email to FPV has not been replied to either, which does not bode well. I feel, at this moment in time, that buying insurance from FPV without checking the details first is asking for problems.

Edited By John F on 01/03/2014 09:17:47

Edited By John F on 01/03/2014 09:18:35

Simon B · March 1, 2014

The BMFA aren't an insurer. They have managed to get a group discount with an insurer by the sheer number of members. I'm baffled why anyone would find £30 for a year in anyway onerous.

Bearair · March 1, 2014

Ok if anyone knows how to remove personal details from a PDF and then publish it on here, if they PM their E-Mail address and I will e-mail them a copy.

I do not see this as a direct competitor to the BMFA insurance, there are a few people who might consider it though.

1. The dedicated parkflyer who has no wish to be a member of the BMFA (Please lets not get into an argument over why, just except some don't)

2. The club not affiliated to the BMFA.

3. Glider pilots who fly from non club sites

4. People who fly from private flying sites

5. FPV fliers

6. People buying RTF's to fly at school playing fields, the beach etc.

And it is that last group who i think is the group with most to gain. Like it or not "toy aeroplanes" probably outsell "model aircraft". And most people will fly them without any kind of insurance. Now i think that if they realise the can get insurance quickly easily and for a really low cost you might get them to have some insurance. Now the insurance above runs August to August but it is pro-rata for what is left of the year, so if you join in December it is just over a tenner. You can pay by Paypal and download the document immediately.

At the moment no-one is really looking after these people and I feel it is the best interests' of us to do so. I think magazines and forums like this should have this information, and we should be getting the info out there.

Edited By Bearair on 01/03/2014 12:27:54

Derek Stevenson · March 1, 2014

I'm a club member and fly at the site, I also fly in the field at the back of the house. I'm covered by the BMFA's insurer and it gives me piece of mind not having to worry am I insured for all incidients. Before I joined a club my son had a fly away one evening, after a week of worry the model was returned to me and no damage had been done. That didn't stop me worrying for a week had it hit someone or something. I also witnessed a pattern ship loose a elevator half one evening. The plane burried itself in a farmers yard a few feet from his BMW. Since the engine disintragated on meeting the concrete yard I can only imagine what damage it would have done to his BMW or even worse some of his family. After these incidients I started to fly myself but joined a club (the craic is great) got insured and also enjoy flying at home. If a serious accidient does happen I want to know I've someone behind me who not only insures me but understands the situtation I'm in. We all hope it never happens but then we never though a prop would hits us and most I know have had the experience some time??

Simon B · March 2, 2014

"1. The dedicated parkflyer who has no wish to be a member of the BMFA (Please lets not get into an argument over why, just except some don't)

2. The club not affiliated to the BMFA.

3. Glider pilots who fly from non club sites

4. People who fly from private flying sites

5. FPV fliers

6. People buying RTF's to fly at school playing fields, the beach etc."

The BMFA covers all those things, provided you're not a numpty about it. They've made specific mention of loosening FPV rules too. Not sure really what the problem is. You can be a Country Member if you're not a club member. This just sounds like people still misunderstand how BMFA insurance works.

Edited By Simon B on 02/03/2014 11:13:30

Bearair · March 2, 2014

Posted by Simon B on 02/03/2014 11:12:19:

"1. The dedicated parkflyer who has no wish to be a member of the BMFA (Please lets not get into an argument over why, just except some don't)

2. The club not affiliated to the BMFA.

3. Glider pilots who fly from non club sites

4. People who fly from private flying sites

5. FPV fliers

6. People buying RTF's to fly at school playing fields, the beach etc."

The BMFA covers all those things, provided you're not a numpty about it. They've made specific mention of loosening FPV rules too. Not sure really what the problem is. You can be a Country Member if you're not a club member. This just sounds like people still misunderstand how BMFA insurance works.

Edited By Simon B on 02/03/2014 11:13:30

I am well aware the BMFA insurance will cover all that and I understand BMFA insurance as well as most. This is for people who either do not wish to be a member of the BMFA or simply want the cheapest insurance they can get. That's called competition, it is supposed to be the way cost's come down. Add to which a Country member doe's not get the benefit's a full member gets but is expected to pay the same amount.

Look at my thread about uninsured flyer's and the issues they might have. Where I fly the majority of the guy's do not belong to a club and have no wish to. I am aware that some people fly without insurance, now do you think they are more likley to buy insurance for £16 or £32. I can now go to the slope and if in chatting I find they do not have insurance I can suggest to them this cheep insurance in fact if they want me to I can get them insurance there and then until August for £7.95. Now I think that is a good idea and the more people we can have insured the better.

Edited By Bearair on 02/03/2014 11:58:46

Alan Gorham_ · March 2, 2014

BMFA Insurance does not cost £32! BMFA membership does cost £32 but the insurance is not the full amount....

The BMFA does have full-time employees who, among other things, negotiate the use of the frequency bands we need to control our models, negotiate for the use of and conditions under which we use the airspace, and also they have funded a legal case over the use of a flying site for a club within the last year or so (at their expense), as well as taking up planning permission cases for many others.

It increasingly is taking good quality promotion seriously (simulator trailer etc at full-size airshows, flight challenge for school kids and university heavy lift for students, finally a good quality website!). Plus, the BMFA news is a good tool to show people new to the hobby all the different facets our hobby can have and it also perhaps may highlight events and meetings that a new entrant may like to visit but would not otherwise have known about.

So, even if you don't like or don't agree with the way the BMFA works in some respects, you have to say that they are working hard to protect and promote the hobby on our behalf.

Since the BMFA moved to Doodson group for insurance they have also implemented a system where smaller (trivial) claims can be settled directly from the BMFA office and the office claims back the money later from the insurer, so this reduces bureaucracy for both parties in the claim.

I think (and this is a guess) that the insurance is about £22-£24 of the total membership cost. The cheapest cover mentioned above may not work as well as the BMFA insurance does. So the real comparison for insurance is £22-24 against £16.

Someone highlighted above that the BMFA insurance covers member-to-member, which to me, when flying on a remote slope with others would be a comfort if my model was to hit them or their car or expensive model and vice versa if they did the same to me.

I have my own views and issues about how the BMFA isn't perfect, but I do think that their insurance is good value all things considered.

Ian Jones · March 2, 2014

Posted by david fillingham 1 on 28/02/2014 12:33:23:

Another potential consideration is how conversant insurance companies advocates are with the realities of model flying and safe practices.

I seem to remember people at our club mentioning that they used to have non-BMFA insurance and that when an incident did occur the legal man did not have a clue flying models and this made life difficult. This should not be an issue through the BMFA insurance.

dave

As mentioned the BMFA itself does not provide insurance cover, it's through an agent and though we might have some difficulty trying to get good cover at club level the BMFA as a bigger organisation has been able to do this for us.

As to the knowledge of the insurers, I have had first hand experience of the current agents visiting clubs and competitions to get to know all the ins and outs. I also know that they considered the previous claims procedure as more difficult than it needed to be.

There's some good arguments been put forward for people who may need a lesser degree of cover but we don't know what we've got until we make a claim. For me the best hope that the cover will be right if I have the misfortune to need it is via the BMFA

Edited By Ian Jones on 02/03/2014 12:57:49

John Privett · March 2, 2014

Posted by Bearair on 02/03/2014 11:54:55:

Add to which a Country member doe's not get the benefit's a full member gets but is expected to pay the same amount.

This is arguably a little off-topic, but since you raised it I'm curious to know what benefits you think I get now that my BMFA membership is through a club (I guess that's what you mean by a "full member" ) that I didn't get a few years ago when my BMFA membership was as a country member, or that those fellow club-members who choose to have their BMFA membership as country members don't get?

On the question of "cheap insurance" I suspect you could have cheaper insurance - but with more exclusions and lower limits. Take it to the ultimate and the cost could be next to nothing, but then so too would the cover. In fact that appears to be the way the FPV insurance is going with 'only' £5m cover and exclusions for turbines and 40cc+ engines.

It's not like motoring insurance where the law is specific about the cover we must have and so "car insurance" has to at least meet that minimum level of cover.

Edited By John Privett on 02/03/2014 13:51:02

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator · March 2, 2014

I can see Bearair's point here. Whether we like it or not, or indeed understand it or not, there are people in this world that simply have an abhorrence of large organisations and "joining things" - so they just will not join the BMFA - even if its in their interests to do so. "There's nowt as queer as folk"!

And BMFA will not offer the insurance cover alone to non-members.

So, immovable object meets irresistible force!

There are also those, possibly a growing number, that aren't what we would recognise as aeromodellers. They just buy a cheap "toy aeroplane" from a non-model shop or online from ebay or Amazon and they know nothing about insurance and less than nothing(!) about the BMFA - and if its possible care even less again! To them this isn't a hobby they are planning to take up seriously - its just a short term novelty. True - it might grow, but right now they are not serious about this.

So I believe he's right - surely it is in in the interests of our hobby that these two camps get at least some sort of insurance - even if its not particularly great value due to being a lower level of cover, having more exclusions and maybe the insurers don't know as much. But its better than no cover at all!

I would feel that for 99.999% of us on here its a no-brainer - the BMFA insurance is better. More cover, more applicable and knowledgeable and most of all the more of us take it up the cheaper the individual cover becomes. So no - I wouldn't recommend this as a first choice package to anyone - I'd tell them they'd be better joining the BMFA. But I'd rather they had this than fly uninsured. I think the MOD thing is a bit of a red herring to be honest - I very much suspect that the people who would be content with this type of frankly rather second-rate cheap insurance are not going to be the sort of folks flying large models at MOD site events!

BEB

Bearair · March 2, 2014

Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 02/03/2014 12:19:37: