Phil Winks Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Posted by Richard Harris on 09/06/2015 06:22:29: Phil, Nice work, have you flown it with your new mods? Rich Not yet Rich I only got back from holiday fri afternoon and the weekend was spent putting her together in between getting ready to return to normality and catching up on my club secretarial duties, however I expect her to be as well behaved as before with the added bonus I can now get a 2300Mah in her as opposed to the 1300Mah I had before and the space inside lets me achieve the same balance with both bty's without adding/removing a portion of church roof, so there's the option of a little more weight for windier days, which seems to be a recurring theme this summer so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stringer Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I have got to try and get my head around flying an autogyro ... went out last night .. took the lead out (but didn't remove the full up trim from Sunday) and she lifted vertical, off to the left and broke the mast. Happened to have a spare with me so fixed her up .. put a little of the lead back in and tried again tonight .. again up and to the left .. tried to catch her but she came down on her nose and broke the motor shaft. 35 years of flying planes ... maybe I am doing something plane related that causes me to do things wrong? Not sure if I have too much throttle ...she takes off so quick and easy but then heads for the sky ... and yet Rich flew her from a hand launch at the weekend... any ideas which technique I am missing?! I have always wanted to fly an autogyro .. sure once I get that first flight in it will be OK but just not getting that yet... Thanks for any advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Jones 2 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Left probables means the rotors were not up to speed. Years of fixed wing teaches us all ground speed at take off means it will fly - open the throttle and go !! For Autos ... WRONG ..... Getting the rotors up to speed first will mean it will fly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Dunker Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Greetings from the highly unofficial "Atom Club" in Gävle, Sweden. We are three (3) members, two with ready Atom (maiden this day) and one under construction (uses the G2 for now). Checking Checklist... We tried first to start from the ground but it was not so good... How it works much better... Conclusion: One Atom flew but only right turns although full left rudder. What can be the reason? The other Atom must have more shims! Anyway, we got some exercise and fresh air this day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stringer Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 OK thanks Steve .. so should I just hold in a little down and let it run further before allowing it to leave the ground .. I know it flies and was just nose heavy so I am assuming I just need to keep it on the ground longer to let the blades spin up more or is there another trick? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozgur Sar Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Posted by Mark Stringer on 09/06/2015 22:26:48: Not sure if I have too much throttle ...she takes off so quick and easy but then heads for the sky ... and yet Rich flew her from a hand launch at the weekend... any ideas which technique I am missing?! Hello Mark, I had the same problem in my very first take off attempts and I noticed that CG was not front heavy enough so I added approx. 50 grams near the motor. Also I adjusted (tilted) the head in elevator axis to the front around 5-10 degrees which made blades almost parallel to the ground. But make sure you pull the elevator all the way back when running and release it to the neutral position as soon as wheels are off the ground... After making these adjustments I was able to take off just like an airplane otherwise it was behaving just like you have mentioned due to too much positive angle on the mast and blades. Getting high headspeed before running is also critical. So make sure one of your friends tilt the autogyro backwards in the wind which will quicken the headspeed gain and release it. Hope that helps... * One last modification that helped me a lot was shortening the length of the mast by 1 cm. By doing this I lowered the vertical CG of the gyro. It helped falling to left during take off and greater control when doing turns in the air. Edited By Ozgur Sar on 10/06/2015 07:43:40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Z Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 But make sure you pull the elevator all the way back when running and release it to the neutral position as soon as wheels are off the ground... I would even say before the wheels are off the ground. I open the throttle to about 60% and hold back on the stick until the rotor has spun up to a reasonable speed, then, well before take off, release the stick and open the throttle to full and wait until the Atom takes off by itself. Just be ready to correct to the right a bit. As Steve said, do not open the throttle completely right away! Max. Edited By Max Z on 10/06/2015 09:02:48 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stringer Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Posted by Ozgur Sar on 10/06/2015 07:36:57: Hello Mark, I had the same problem in my very first take off attempts and I noticed that CG was not front heavy enough so I added approx. 50 grams near the motor. Also I adjusted (tilted) the head in elevator axis to the front around 5-10 degrees which made blades almost parallel to the ground. When you say adjusted I assume you mean permanently set to that position using the control rods? I may try shortening the mast too if I can. Max - thanks - I guess if the head is set down more then I will be able to use your approach .. at the moment she takes off in what feels like a few feet. I will see if I can swap the motor out and shorten the mast .. never easy when working away and have limited supplies with me .. I was lucky to have a spare mast as I bought another autogyro I am building with me to sand its parts. Will see if I can do all this and try again this evening. Thanks All Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozgur Sar Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Yes Mark, I permanently set the head to that position by adjusting the control rods. My travel limits (end points) are set to 150% so that I can pull or push the elevator or aileron to the limits in case I need. Expo settings are 15% to keep controls smoother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stringer Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Posted by Ozgur Sar on 10/06/2015 09:12:32: Yes Mark, I permanently set the head to that position by adjusting the control rods. My travel limits (end points) are set to 150% so that I can pull or push the elevator or aileron to the limits in case I need. Expo settings are 15% to keep controls smoother. That's great info thanks .. I have some Taranis setup to do anyway so will adjust those settings too ... now how do I make the trim work the right way?!?! (The elevon control for the Atom and my Wing Wing using the Taranis both have the elevator trim work the wrong way around for some reason .. very confusing!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozgur Sar Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Mark, you don't need to play with the elevon mixing settings. Just release the control rods on the servo heads and adjust the head angle mechanically. If you want to increase the travel limits, go to end point menu of your radio and increase them for aileron and elevator Regarding trim I don't have any experience with Taranis. But I'm sure there should be videos in youtube Edited By Ozgur Sar on 10/06/2015 09:59:45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stringer Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Posted by Ozgur Sar on 10/06/2015 09:58:46: Mark, you don't need to play with the elevon mixing settings. Just release the control rods on the servo heads and adjust the head angle mechanically. If you want to increase the travel limits, go to end point menu of your radio and increase them for aileron and elevator Regarding trim I don't have any experience with Taranis. But I'm sure there should be videos in youtube Edited By Ozgur Sar on 10/06/2015 09:59:45 Thanks .. I wasn't meaning that .. I will move the rods to adjust the head position and adjust the end point settings on the TX for more movement ... I just have the odd situation with my Taranis where the trims work the wrong way (i.e. up on the trim moves it down ... tends to make things worse when you trim up and it goes down even more ) .. I will search YT when I can. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozgur Sar Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Check out this video Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stringer Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Thanks loads .. busy lunchtime then .. best not get this thread too off track, but thanks so much for this Now can I do that, remove the engine from my BD5D and get it into the Atom, adjust the head, throws and trims and get it flying tonight? - Will report back .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stringer Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 OK - have sorted the trims out now so good there thanks .... will research elevon endpoints and expo another time ... motor change later hopefully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Jones 2 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Mark, Plenty has been written and suggested which I will not disagree with.. For me its simple... Your Atom flies as proven by Rich and you.. so why change anything?? The issue is your take off technique which understandably is influemced by your previous experiences, wrong for auto gyros. So go back and try again from the floor, starting with back stick to build rotor speed as you SLOWLY increase ground speed. Once you notice the blades really start to spin release the back stick to neutral, add some more power smoothly, but you should not need much. The Model then should take off smoothly, if it does not then rotor speen is not sufficient still - then continue and wait with alittle bit more throttle. If you try and force the takeoff with back stick, you might be lucky .. OR it will leap into the air straight up or leave the floor and immediately roll left and start the 'funky chicken dance!!' ..................time for the glue. Over the last 2 years, learning this art of model and flying, believe me I have done all the above and crashed on take off all the time, now it makes sense and i see why the experienced autonuts make take offs look sooooo easy... Once you get the knack its so rewarding and then you can watch the new comers struggle with mutterings of ... 'my model wont fly, I need to change something.....' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stringer Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Steve That was sort of my point when I first asked as I knew it could actually fly - I am more than happy to say "I think it is me!" As I have changed the nose weight I may reduce the plate angle a little (especially as it is not using the same head plate as during its first flight) to allow for that and hopefully help keep me on the ground as it builds up rotor speed. I have sorted the trim issue out now for the Atom and my Wing Wing so if it needs some trim to keep it level once in the air then at least that will be easier now. I think the idea of taking off at less than full throttle is probably what I really need to get into my head .. if I can get the motor change I will try again this evening .. the field I have available is amazing so I really don't want to miss out on my chances while I am here. Thanks again .. will report back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Wright 2 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Posted by Steve Jones 2 on 10/06/2015 13:48:33: Mark, Plenty has been written and suggested which I will not disagree with.. For me its simple... Your Atom flies as proven by Rich and you.. so why change anything?? The issue is your take off technique which understandably is influemced by your previous experiences, wrong for auto gyros. So go back and try again from the floor, starting with back stick to build rotor speed as you SLOWLY increase ground speed. Once you notice the blades really start to spin release the back stick to neutral, add some more power smoothly, but you should not need much. The Model then should take off smoothly, if it does not then rotor speen is not sufficient still - then continue and wait with alittle bit more throttle. If you try and force the takeoff with back stick, you might be lucky .. OR it will leap into the air straight up or leave the floor and immediately roll left and start the 'funky chicken dance!!' ..................time for the glue. Over the last 2 years, learning this art of model and flying, believe me I have done all the above and crashed on take off all the time, now it makes sense and i see why the experienced autonuts make take offs look sooooo easy... Once you get the knack its so rewarding and then you can watch the new comers struggle with mutterings of ... 'my model wont fly, I need to change something.....' The advice from Steve is IMHO good .First time Auto gyro constructors should have faith in the design as detailed on plan and keep in mind that such designs have been born from hundreds of hours of experience . Rotor dynamics are very different from fixed wing and generally not well understood so for most so changing the design takes the constructor into unknown territory before sufficient pilot experience is gained. When the model is set up as advised and the correct pilot technique is understood and implemented then these models can be flown with relatively great ease once the issue of disorientation has been mastered. Regards to all Tom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stringer Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Tom I have complete trust in the design and appreciate all of the work that Rich and everyone have put into the model. I will take a step at a time and do my best to learn as I go along. If I can get properly to grips with the Atom then hopefully my next model will also be good ... lets hope I have gathered enough idea of how an AG works otherwise that will have little chance of getting in the air I will try and update later .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Barlow Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Posted by Tomas Dunker on 10/06/2015 07:30:12: We tried first to start from the ground but it was not so good... That's a pretty cool photo and something most of us have seen! Mark, Headspeed is everything before you start the take off run. Everything before that is just building the headspeed. Once you have the headspeed, noted by the very distinctive whooshing noise, you can open the throttle and start the take off run. As soon as the wheels leave the ground I usually put in a little right aileron, let it nose up & climb for nearly a second to gain a few feet and then push the nose down to build airspeed and headspeed. After that it's just like a trainer using lots of rudder for the turns and aileron only to control the roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stringer Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 So ... i took the motor off the BD5D found that its connections were female whereas the Atoms were male ... so i took the ESC too .. fitted it all in the Atom .. calibrated the ESC, adjusted the head down a little, . added a little more of the lead back in the nose. ..popped a fresh battery in and went to the far end if the field. .... Worked hard to remember what everyone said today ... spun her up by hand first then held in UP as i tweaked the throttle .. gently .. gently .. bit more .. bit more .. elevator to neutral as she gained rotor speed ...up into the air gently .. veered right .. held left .. kept it gentle .... FLYING !!!!!!!! She still needed some down trim and plenty of left trim but at least the trims all worked in the right direction now ... had 5 or 10 minute flight, left and right hand circuits ... flew a treat ... sooooo chuffed. Adjusted the head again so that i could centre the trims and had a second go ....the wind had died right down so i had a much longer run but she took off lovely this time .... a low right hand circuit, got disorientated, came down in the long grass ... another mast needed but all my fault that one and despite that i was still very happy with the two take offs, especially the second one. Thanks again to everyone for the advice today and to Rich for his help and if course great design ... my head is finally in Auto Gyro mode! Edited By Mark Stringer on 10/06/2015 22:39:03 Edited By Mark Stringer on 10/06/2015 22:40:26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Harris Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 Well done Mark, Once you have that first 'controlled' flight out of the way it becomes some what addictive! You were a brave man to go out the wind this evening! Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Barlow Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 r.e orientation I find it best to watch the nose when flying, just like flying helicopters. You can watch the wheels as well for roll but they can trick you & seem to cross over causing roll correction in the wrong direction. Keep it close and don't be afraid to use full rudder to keep the turns tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Jones 2 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 There you go , told you it was rewarding and easy once you do the right thing - patience and don't force things. Now keep it in close , lots of lefts and rights and fly the pants off it while you build the next !!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stringer Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Thanks All.. Rich - I am way up North .. and surprisingly the weather is fantastic .. a little breezy for the first flight but almost calm for the second .. hence the longer run and being further away from me when I got disorientated Chris ,.. thanks .. I am sure it will come with experience Steve .. I am very pleased ... did I mention that the next one I am building is a pusher just to make it interesting .. I would like to say it is my own design but it is actually two of Rich's designs morphed into one .. the Spratom I call it .. I will start a build thread for it soon but I have already pinched its mast earlier this week .. now, where up here can I find a piece of 13 x 6 spruce .. need another mast for tonight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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