Peter Garsden Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 As I am a natural publicist and webmaster of the LMMGA website, I have just put a story up about our Tornado build. Hope you don't mind Phil - if you do it's too late anyway as it is loaded and launched. If you want to read my pithy style click here. If you want to join LMMGA it is only £10 a year - £10 dearer than PSSA mind you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted December 20, 2014 Author Share Posted December 20, 2014 No probs Pete - I always like to read your website articles and any publicity for PSS flying is good publicity as far as I'm concerned Been a bit quiet here on the old Tornado front with nothing to report on for a few days now - been a big push at work with year end (I've finished now) and away from work it seems one kids birthday party after the other is keeping me out of the workshop. Hoping to make some good progress over the Christmas break... at least, that's the plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Garsden Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Just noticed Phil that you were using 'er indoor best china vases there. Take it from a man who has been married and castigted for 22 years that you really are playing with fire there. I just hope she does not go Googling Tornado and find the picture - might ruin Christmas. It is this little snippet that has persuaded me that a fibreglass and lost foam fuselage is the way to go. My plan has arrived from Andy. Very comprehensive, but it is an odd shape which I think lends itself to carving foam rather than balsa construction. There are quite a few parts. Although it is a brilliant design, I think the lost foarm method will be cheaper. Will start my own blog soon. I have decided to make the front jets separately out of a moulding then glue it onto the fuselage, then fibreglass tape to join it onto the fuselage just behind the wing. Don't know whether to block off the front of the jet or leave it open. What do you think chaps? Andy is using CAD to draw me some formers to the edge of the fuselage, ie beyond the inner sides. Phil, have you drawn the new profiile of your wing onto the plan as it is a different section? If so could you scan and email or post me a copy of the drawing just round the wing. Also I was wondering if you have sourced an all moving tailplane horn which sits in the middle of the fuselage. Presumably it is attached with solder? The plan refers to a 10g piece of piano wire - does he mean 10 swg? Or am I being thick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted December 24, 2014 Author Share Posted December 24, 2014 Hehe thanks for the marital advice Pete. I must confess I did ask politely before using them, although I'm not sure how happy she was about her jugs being pictured on the internet - I think Christmas is safe!! Glad you have got your plans in time for the Christmas build period, I think if you build it as a simple box fus with the air intakes as separate 'cheeks' that can be glued onto the sides later then the shape will be fine for your lost foam idea - I look forward to seeing you make progress with the model and your blog. I would definitely advise blocking the air intakes off on this one, it has been well proven in that guise, the areas aren't massive so blanked intakes is the right thing to do IMO. As for the wing section Pete, the 'new' chosen section is shown accurately below - SD6060 - if you print and scale that image to the root chord dimension that should give you what you need - I'm assuming you want this to help shape the mating fuselage sides to the wing? To be honest the profile of SD6060 is so similar on the underside to the wing section as originally drawn by Andy that I made NO ALTERATION to the fuselage side profile from the plan - any slight mismatch to get the wing to seat perfectly I will make right later on when I introduce the wing to the fus for real. As for 10g wire, yes I read that as 10swg also and procured some of that at the recent LMA show, its approx. 1/8th" dia. I've not made the horn yet for the AMT but will do so soon, and yes, I'm proposing to cut a small metal horn myself and solder that permanently to the metal shaft. I've found (on my Hawk in particular) that after multiple bumpy landings the commercial SLEC mouldings can work loose on the shaft which is a real pain to put right once its built in. A well soldered one will last longer than the model for sure... With 2 very excited young children and family arriving tomorrow morning I'm not sure how much blogging I will be doing in the next 48 hrs or so - so MERRY CHRISTMAS to you all, and I'll see you on the other side with a Tornado build update... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Jones Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Peter, regarding the question of blocking off the intakes I did a test on the Orme a few years back with an EDF Hunter I was using for PSS. With them open the model flew but didn't have much energy. I landed and taped over the intakes before launching immediately, the difference was night and day. It flew with much greater speed and energy, deceptively so for a light model. So the same model and conditions, the intakes were the only variable. Based on this I've since blocked off all the ones that were open and all new builds are closed. The drag off internal ducting can be surprisingly high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted December 26, 2014 Author Share Posted December 26, 2014 Done a little tinkering on the Tornado rear fuselage today but nothing really worthy of posting as yet - with a 5 year old boy excited about Christmas and with a pile of new LEGO kits to assemble with him you can imagine Ive not done much with balsa this past 48 hours... On a side note - I thought this may be of interest to some - just before Christmas I'd treated myself to a box of Vulcan Bomber real ales and have supped a couple now - went particularly well with the left overs today! It's bought through the Vulcan to the Sky website, it drinks very well indeed once chilled but the best thing is that for every bottle sold a donation is made to VTTS, helping keep the Vulcan operational throughout 2015. As a massive Vulcan fan, and with 2015 likely to be XH558s final flying season, I'll drink to that - cheers! Right, back on with the Tornado... (or should we have another bottle?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Foxtrot Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 Nice one Phil, you even manage weave aviation and beer together, impressive! The Tornado looks like a nice project, long forward to seeing this progress. All the best! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Garsden Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 I know that i am neither saving the Vulcan Bomber or even the planet but thought I would show you what a prat I can look on a selfie wearing my Christmas present - actually two in one if you look carefully. Availabe from the Traplet website if you want one. When I look again at the photo, I think I am getting a mental disorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted December 27, 2014 Author Share Posted December 27, 2014 DIY Bomb disposal your thing Pete?? Is it the red wire, or the blue one?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Garsden Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 Tragic really Phil. I thought it was the red wire but I was wrong, so I write this post from beyond the grave in the land of never ending nag free model building, where all women are interested in what you are doing, and know the difference between a clevis and a horn. As if! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 'The Christmas Effect' has seen me take longer to get all the parts ready for assembly of the rear fus than I had hoped, anyway, a little update with some points worthy of mention. F7 (the bigger of the 2 rear formers shown here) has a large access hole cut central but as close to the bottom as I dare go in 1/8th balsa to allow the elevator pushrod to operate through it - this is a variation to the plan as I have elected to floor mount the elevator servo in the rear of the wing bay, instead of on the rear face of F7 as drawn. There's plenty of room in the wing bay if the servo is flat mounted below the wing and its aileron torque rod array and I'm much happier retaining access to the servo instead of building it in. A bit of metal work is required before you can assemble the rear fuselage as it is built around the elevator actuator. The plan shows a SLEC commercial AMT horn - I've used these in the past on numerous models and (especially on my Hawk) I've found them to work loose on the shaft after dozens of bouncy slope landings. To combat this I've elected to make a small horn out of brass and solder it to the shaft for a permanent fix. The horn was made by squashing flat a length of brass 1/4" square section and drilling/shaping to suit. To aid alignment and to improve surface area for the solder I butted it up to a collet mounted on the 10swg shaft. It took a while for my 50W soldering iron to heat this assembly but once 'soaked' the solder flowed very nicely through the collet and the horn leaving me with a strong joint - permanent (I hope!) The shaft was cut to 25cm long, giving more insertion length into the tailplane halves than shown on the plan (I want my tailplanes to be removable for transport so I felt this was needed) and 2 more collets were grub screw mounted at the correct position for the inside of the fuselage doublers - these just keep the shaft central in the fus. I may well use 2 MORE collets as bearings in the outer plywood bearer, as the shaft runs beautifully and smooth in them, the only problem is the fuselage is tapered at this point so the bearing collets would have to be angled correctly in the fuselage sides. With the fuselage sides cut I think we are in a position to assemble the rear fuselage - for this to be done accurately the plan states clearly the FRONT fuselage needs to be firmly pinned again to the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Fenton Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Lovely work as always Phil, Christmas should in theory allow a bit of spare time for building but it never seems to work out like that... Interesting to hear about the SLEC elevator joiners. We had a lengthy debate in the "chip shop" section of the forum over these. I always assumed they were silver soldered but alas they are not. Several people including Peter Miller suggested we shouldn't use them. I did a pull test on one until it let go. It took 8 lbs of pull before it slipped. I felt this was okay and have used one. Though with hindsight wish I had silver soldered the arm simply for the peace of mind Cheers Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 Hiya Danny, 'Seasons Greetings' to you! I'll go re-read the Chipmunk debate - I think in 'normal' operating conditions the SLEC units are probably fine on anything up to medium sized models - in all honesty I think I damaged my Hawk assembly when carrying the model to the slope from the car in very high winds one day on the Orme - the all moving tail (with no Rx power to the servo) was 'thrown' aggressively by the force of the wind - considering the areas of the tailplane your 8lb pull test was most likely exceeded that day - and once its 'gone' - its gone! I have tried to drip some slow setting epoxy back onto the joint through the tailpipe (limited access) but it only holds until the next time the tail is knocked - most often by me when loading the model into the car! Anyway, I think this soldered brass solution will give a permanent fix... my soldering is never brilliant on anything heavier than servo wiring due to the limited power of my iron, but after some patient heating it does appear to have produced a solid joint! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Garsden Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Interesting comment about soldering irons Phil. I have had the same frustrating problem with soldering, which, if you have any electric models, one does a lot of. I bit the bullet and bought a digital mega device with a mains housing with digital temperature measurements, which goes up to 450degrees celsius, and more importantly, a sensor in the tip. I was viewing a video about it from Bruce the Australian who said the problem with normal soldering irons is the fact that to get them to 250 degrees it heats up to 325 then cools down to 200 then heats up again, and what happens is it burns your solder. As a tailplane depends on maybe get a decent soldering set up. This is the one I went for and it is brilliant. Saves so much time. I have made my own leads up etc. It is on Amazon for £44.95 - **LINK** I have been finishing off my Mustang over Christmas and will get busy on the Tornado in the New Year. Good photos re tailplane pivot. I have been wondering about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Blackburn Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I'm glad people discussed the SLEC elevator horn before I got to that bit; on the first Tornado I built I seem to remember that I filed a notch into the 10 swg pivot wire for the grub screw and then epoxied everything in place, tightening the grub screw down before the epoxy set. It never broke, but a failure at a loading of 8 lbs is a little too risky for my liking so I'll be employing a soldered solution similar to Phil's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Fenton Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Hi Andy. The SLEC item is soldered. The 8lb pull strength was in the soldered state. Really they need silver soldering which is like brazing....CheersDanny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Thanks for the details on your high tech iron Pete, I should treat myself really as whether you are soldering servo wires, speed controller connections or as here, built in mechanical linkages, they are all really important to do as well as possible - there should be no doubt in the quality of any joint before moving on - a more powerful iron would help I'm sure. Just a couple of piccies tonight of the parts before we join the rear fuselage to the front. The rear fus forms the outer most part of the air intake so the hole for the wing section was sized/positioned to suit my wing at said distance from the centreline. This was a little tricky to position as my wing varies from the plan not only in section but also in chord and sweep - so I had to spend a little time positioning the cut. We will see later how close I got it to the required mark... I am expecting to have to tailor to suit. I also raised the TE by approx. 1.5mm from the plan as the thinner chord of my wing had it sat in a hollow at the back which would have given a positive wing incidence not intended. These parts are cut away from the fus side, then taped back to it - for ease later when cutting out the wing saddle with the top sheeting applied. Interestingly, I found my fuselage sides at their widest point needed a little slither of extra material gluing to the 4" wide sheet - the fus is 'humped' very slightly over the wing and the hump just took it over 4" by almost 1/4" at the highest point. Does my plan have a slight scaling error??? Andy's drawings show this part ably cut from a 4" wide sheet... hmmm? Final shot shows all the parts ready for assembly, a handed pair of fuselage sides, plus 1/8th balsa doublers, plus 1/8" marine ply bearers, plus formers F7 and F8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Garsden Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Interesting comment Phil about the wing cut out. This is the problem I was worried about with my intended lost foam version except it is much more difficult to cut away a fibreglass mould than a balsa version. If you have a full size template for the root of the new section, is there any way you could send it to me? I want to cut out the side cardboard template for the foam, but don't want to do so until I have got the section? Or is there somewhere I can download the section from to the size I need if that would be easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 Pete - PM me your home address and Ill send some traces over to you from the wing root section, no probs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted January 3, 2015 Author Share Posted January 3, 2015 The rear fuselage section is now all assembled... a few pictures to aid some comments as the process was a little tricky in areas. Firstly - as its effectively assembled in free space - its essential to securely pin the front fuselage back down to the board smack on the centreline. The aim is to fit one side at a time, sliding the elevator actuator through the first side before fitting the other half. They are glued first at F6, the rearmost point of the front fuselage, and this has to be glued square and firm. With the front of the rear fuselage splayed outwards to form the air intake at its widest point (F4) this wasn't simple and I elected to add more support/surface area here by adding a length of 1/2" triangular to the rear of F6, as shown. I also added a 45mm sq 1/8th balsa doubler to the fuselage at the point where the fuselage side is slit open to enable the half height air intake to be formed - as running grain wise this was splitting further rear of where needed... both mods can be seen at the bottom left of the photo below where the first side is added and glued at F6 only. With the top half of the rear fuselage splayed out to meet F4, the bottom half had to be pulled in to meet the front fuselage section, and this required some temporary chocking to aid the process... no glue, the guide block is just pinned firm to the board, and at this point, the there is NO glue added at F4. The elevator actuator is slid into a central position through the first fuselage side, the second side is added and glued in the same manner to F6 only, the lower half chocked again, then the rear fus is splayed open just enough to dry fit F7 and F8 (below). A bit of fiddling to ensure everything is straight (really good idea to add central vertical lines on these formers - although they don't seat down onto the plan so a modellers square was used to aid alignment) and once happy(??) all the joints are secured with thin wicking cyano. A double check that everything was still straight and I went round all the joints again with medium CA. Time for a beer - that was stressful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted January 3, 2015 Author Share Posted January 3, 2015 With the glue joints all set at the back end I fixed the front of the rear fuselage sides to the widest point of F4 - note I'd overcut the length of the sides intentionally - these will be trimmed back to F4 once set. The bottom half of the rear fuselage remains chocked against the front fuselage only. Although it looks straight and true its all still a bit weak and wobbly at the back end and in need of some extra parts adding BEFORE you remove the assembly from the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted January 3, 2015 Author Share Posted January 3, 2015 The extra rigidity needed in the rear fuselage section is created by adding the three 1/2 x 1/8th longerons then the top sheeting as shown as per the plan. First the longerons, left oversize at the rear... ...then the 1/8th balsa sheeting Once dry the fuselage will have sufficient stiffness to enable me to remove it from the board with confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted January 3, 2015 Author Share Posted January 3, 2015 Whilst the glue is drying on the rear fuselage I've started to contemplate how to tackle the characteristic jet nozzles needed a little later... I'd like to build these up in the way Matt Jones had developed and used so effectively on his Su-27 HERE - but Matt - do you think this method can be tailored to cope with the '50 pence piece' effect on the outer circumference of the Tornado nozzles?? Ideas on a postcard please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Meade Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I could model them in Solidworks so that you could get them 3D printed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted January 3, 2015 Author Share Posted January 3, 2015 that's cheatin' . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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