Ross Clarkson Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Where and who say's the fire was in the wing root? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony F Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 In that picture there is a hole by the landing light. Maybe a thrown blade or bits of, went into the fuel cells ?Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area 51 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 This looks similar to the B737 accident at MAN in 80's, the fan blades pierced the nacelle and also ruptured fuel lines allowing fuel to come into contact with hot engine parts/brakes etc.. The flames in one other media picture suggest they were between the engine and cabin, perhaps if reverse was selected on the rejected take off it may have sent flames in the direction of the damaged cabin.. It will only be a glassfibre fairing around the centre tanks at this point... As always, I suspect its best we await a report from those tasked with a full investigation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_B Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Tony F, If any turbine blades become detached they are either contained within the turbine casing or ejected rearwards so in either case they won't produce the damage shown in the picture. Compressor blades, including the fan, are designed to be fully contained, although there is always the rare chance of fan blade being able to escape. Again, these will not cause the damage shown. Area 51, it's highly unlikely, but not impossible, that an uncontained fan blade has ruptured any fuel lines or tanks; see paragraph above. Also, I'm at a loss to know what hot engine parts you are referring to that could cause any escaping fuel to ignite? A fan blade is typically at ambient temperature at ground level and the hot bits are at the rear, ie, the LP turbine. Jet A1, or similar will only combust if coming into contact with a very hot surface In excess of 200°C. Admittedly the brakes could have been extremely hot and capable of igniting any fuel present, but IMHO I think the fire might have been ignited otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I think Bill has it right. Since the A380 turbine disk failure a few years back they have redesigned the engines to contain turbine failures. For years they have been designed to take fan disk failure with the blade off test mandatory for all engines. I think the right hand side of the engine is where the trouble has begun and thats the only part we have not seen a photo of. The wind then blew the fire over the fuz where it easily consumed the composite panels around the wing fairing and non load bearing skin behind. Note that in the photo up there the wing under skinning is burned but un damaged although i am surprised by the damage to the slat as they are usually stainless steel for the anti ice system. Anyway, im sure the truth will out. In the grand scheme of things though its a non event really as the crew did as they were trained, the fire dept were on hand in moments and the cabin crew evacuated the whole aircraft safely. On closer inspection of that photo i am not sure the inner skin is gone, it could just be blackened. hard to tell from that photo as the exposure is a bit wonkey Edited By Jon Harper on 09/09/2015 17:02:20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_B Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 If the press is to be believed: "The pilot later told passengers that the accident was the result of a "catastrophic failure of the engine", according to the Guardian's Jacob Steinberg." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Posted by Bill_B on 09/09/2015 14:42:28: Looking at the disrupted engine cowling it might be an uncontained (as most are) turbine disc failure. I notice the parts of the skin are buckled outwards which might suggest the cause of the fire was internal rather than external????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Clarkson Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Surely the fire would have gone straight up though! I think that damage is more likely caused by the fire being blown onto it by the direction of the wind and a combination of Trumpton making sure all was extinguished. Anyway, as we say, we'll wait and see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bert baker Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 That pic looks weird, or have they got half scale cleaners, are full size planes really that big Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_B Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 They're actually on the far side of the aircraft. Ross, when a turbine disc fails and breaches the turbine casing it can come out at any point during a 360° rotation. Had it come out half way up the port side of the engine there wouldn't have been such a catastrophic fire. On the QANTAS A-380 the disc erupted upwards through the wing with relative safety, had it gone inboard at about 45° it would most likely gave penetrated the fuselage with devastating results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 In would in interesting to see a photo of the port engine turbine shroud - I haven't seen any signs of damage in any pics so far but not seen a clear pic of the engine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_B Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 A little snippet: **LINK** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_B Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 You can clearly see the ruptured nacelle in this picture which is typical of an uncontained failure. Possibly HP disc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Very professional all round - response from ATC was immediate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymaz Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Excellent work from ATC. If you didn't know the circumstances you'd think what emergency, if you missed the mayday. These people in ATC are superb. High pressure, complete focus.... Everyone did a superb job, except the idiots who went for their bags . Fire out in a couple of minutes. Edited By cymaz on 10/09/2015 06:31:57 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Clarkson Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Posted by Bill_B on 09/09/2015 20:10:05: They're actually on the far side of the aircraft. Ross, when a turbine disc fails and breaches the turbine casing it can come out at any point during a 360° rotation. Had it come out half way up the port side of the engine there wouldn't have been such a catastrophic fire. On the QANTAS A-380 the disc erupted upwards through the wing with relative safety, had it gone inboard at about 45° it would most likely gave penetrated the fuselage with devastating results. That's exactly what I was trying to get at Bill. I got the impression some were trying to say that the fire originated at the wing root (Internally) and that the engine was not the problem at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Very slick work from all involved as i think the fire was out within 5 minutes of the mayday call. Also impressive was the controller keeping track of the BA flight 2276 and the delta flight 2235 being handed off. It would be easy to mix up the two under pressure like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_B Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Ross, apologies, sometimes the written word is easily misconstrued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Posted by Bill_B on 10/09/2015 00:15:25: You can clearly see the ruptured nacelle in this picture which is typical of an uncontained failure. Possibly HP disc. That photo is the first I have seen of the engine and it looks pretty conclusive that something came out of it at a rate of knots.... presumably starting the fire in the fuselage/wing root - thanks for posting it Bill_B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area 51 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Posted by Dave Hopkin on 10/09/2015 12:28:25: looks pretty conclusive that something came out of it at a rate of knots.... presumably starting the fire Good summary of take of thrust & fuel under pressure.... Parafin when burned produces lots of black smoke.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_B Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Posted by Area 51 on 10/09/2015 14:54:59: .... Parafin when burned produces lots of black smoke.. Only in a fire, not when being burned under pressure in gas turbine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area 51 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Strange Bill.. I always thought a by product was the exhaust of a combustion chamber burn (fire)!.. Must have been a fire inboard on that donk Bill.. there's black smoke damage to both sides of the fuselage, LE, TE and flaps.. so I'd put money on the fan blades breaching the casing and rupturing fuel lines; bringing about a fire until it was extinguished.. Bit similar to the B737 in the 80's at MAN. Edited By Area 51 on 10/09/2015 16:56:29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_B Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 I'm sorry Area 51, your theory is completely wrong, all fan blades seem to be present and correct. See photo. Also, when was the last time you saw a modern airliner emitting plumes of black smoke as its operating? Paraffin/kerosene simply does not produce black smoke when burned under pressure as in a gas turbine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 As an ex chemist, pressure has nowt to do with it, a sufficiency of oxygen gets rid of black smoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_B Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Posted by Donald Fry on 10/09/2015 20:06:50: As an ex chemist, pressure has nowt to do with it, a sufficiency of oxygen gets rid of black smoke. ......which in a gas turbine is produced by high pressure air from the compressors. That's the only way to get enough oxygen for a clean burn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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