Former Member Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiltshire Flyer Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Posted by Percy Verance on 21/11/2015 08:36:10: WF We had a chap in our club many moons ago whom would run with the model, then stop before finally throwing it........... Sorry, didn't see PM's post in time! Edited By Percy Verance on 21/11/2015 08:36:54 Percy, Peter, I'm glad I'm not the only one to have witnessed that! 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Barlow Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 I always launch my electric non U/C madels upwards at about 30-45 degrees and 3/4 power. Once away I allow them to arc over to level then increase the power once back on both sticks. Regarding running & launching, as ungainly as it may seem (especially when I have to do it) sometimes it's neccesary with i.c powered models, especially older engines more prone to fuel starvation or surging when subjected to the G forces in a powerful standing launch. Sometimes it's better to run up to speed then release the model with the addition of a gentle push forward, whilst still running! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Geezer Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 The only exception to the 15 degree angle launch is the more heavily loaded, higher aspect ratio wing, powered sailplanes which are imported from Europe. In these (special ) cases a level or a couple of degrees downward, firm launch is appropriate, allowing the plane to accelerate to climb "on the wing" rather than being dragged up by it's prop - also there is far less chance of the dreaded tip-stall at zero feet followed by a destructive cartwheel. In fact l would say this type of model should be launched just the way you should with a bungee. Just my four-pennerth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiltshire Flyer Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Posted by Chris Barlow on 21/11/2015 17:18:25: I always launch my electric non U/C madels upwards at about 30-45 degrees and 3/4 power. Once away I allow them to arc over to level then increase the power once back on both sticks. Regarding running & launching, as ungainly as it may seem (especially when I have to do it) sometimes it's neccesary with i.c powered models, especially older engines more prone to fuel starvation or surging when subjected to the G forces in a powerful standing launch. Sometimes it's better to run up to speed then release the model with the addition of a gentle push forward, whilst still running! Oh no!!! We have a runner!!!! Keep calm chaps!! I'll get him into the van! 😋 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Barlow Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Posted by Wiltshire Flyer on 22/11/2015 01:27:44: Posted by Chris Barlow on 21/11/2015 17:18:25: I always launch my electric non U/C madels upwards at about 30-45 degrees and 3/4 power. Once away I allow them to arc over to level then increase the power once back on both sticks. Regarding running & launching, as ungainly as it may seem (especially when I have to do it) sometimes it's neccesary with i.c powered models, especially older engines more prone to fuel starvation or surging when subjected to the G forces in a powerful standing launch. Sometimes it's better to run up to speed then release the model with the addition of a gentle push forward, whilst still running! Oh no!!! We have a runner!!!! Keep calm chaps!! I'll get him into the van! 😋 Am I the first to admit it? Definately not the only one though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Green Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Are you 'anti-runners' seriously suggesting that any model, regardless of type, power, weight, & configuration can be hand-launched by a simple toss from standstill? unless you're a foamy-only flyer, you stick to lightweights or your models are massively overpowered, then that generalisation is just ridiculous! There you go WF, you found another! how big is the van? Cheers Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaunie Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 I have a vortex 400 that seems to like a few steps and a firm launch. I asked a friend to launch slightly nose up, I got a lot of nose up! As I already had a bit of back stick on due to its tendency to sink at launch it popped up and stood on its thrust fifteen feet up for about five seconds before falling over sideways, no airspeed no control, bonk! Thinking about some thrust vectoring vanes which would have given me some control. Shaunie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lee Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Posted by Phil Green on 22/11/2015 08:44:35: Are you 'anti-runners' seriously suggesting that any model, regardless of type, power, weight, & configuration can be hand-launched by a simple toss from standstill? unless you're a foamy-only flyer, you stick to lightweights or your models are massively overpowered, then that generalisation is just ridiculous! There you go WF, you found another! how big is the van? Cheers Phil and I'll join you. Whilst I advocated a firm push from a standstill when self launching a Bixler, which was the question, that's a world away from many other models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Barlow Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 It's one of those things you either learn from experience or witness yourself! That vigorous over arm launch by a flying buddy where the old but loved Enya goes from singing away to a spluttering mess and your lovely fun fighter that's been flying for years drops a wing and falls out of the sky. The launcher looks all sheepish and quite guilty when you explain what's happened whilst picking up the bits from the strip! Fortunately when I learnt this lesson it was only a prop that got broken but I felt so stupid I gave my mate a new replacement prop! I have a Laser Arrow with a new ASP .52 that will fly out of my hand with a gentle push. A Cambrian Fun Fighter with a modern ASP.25 that will go with a step and slightly harder push, waggles it's wings and drops a few feet before gaining airspeed to fly away. But then I have a 100" glider with an OS 25FP that will cut if the fuel in the engine experiences more that 1G backwards and so needs a few brisk steps then a push upwards and forwards. It all comes down to experience, understanding what's happening and lessons learned. I'd much rather run & launch a fellow flyers model and look a bit ungainly than fling it into a dead stick crash! But it does still look very funny waddling across the strip trying to run whilst holding a model over head & trying not to fall over! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Chris, as I pointed out many posts ago on the first page, the problem with running and launching is that a stable position for launching is rarely achieved - often resulting in a poor throw. Steve Jones, who posted after me, linked to a video showing very good examples of running launches but heavier models are unlikely to just fly away with the "gentle push release" technique used and will need a positive throw from the point of release. Quite frankly, if a model's engine falters during a throw, then it's running too lean or has a very badly positioned fuel tank. My 12th scale fighters were tuned for power (to the point where the engines were just reliable in silly G turns) and always delivered good power at launch, whether over thrown arm or more often underarm lobbed. From a safety point of view, is running over (often) uneven ground with a screaming propeller above your head a great idea? I've seen the result of a small engined model slipping and ripping open a forearm from an overhead self-launch - I can't honestly say whether the pilot was running with it but I think it's more than likely from my recollection of his normal technique. Whichever, the chances of a slip are much reduced by adopting a stable launch position. Edited By Martin Harris on 22/11/2015 11:08:22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Barlow Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 It all comes down to technique, practice and athletic ability! I'm sure modern models over powered with modern engines fly away from the launcher just fine, I have a couple myself! I suspect there are just as many you tube videos of vigorous dead stick launches as there are silly and useless running launches but what you don't see much of is videos of the smooth & effective launches of classic models with moderate power. That would just be a boring you tube video! But back to the OP, Foamies, just fling 'em slightly upwards. Electric balsa models, fling 'em a bit harder. i.c models, at least ask the pilot how they want it launched & either respect that or don't do it! Slope soarers, always hard & down... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcaddict Posted November 22, 2015 Author Share Posted November 22, 2015 thanks for all replies, all interesting stuff the original post was specific to the bixler as seems to have a large amount of downthrust built in and my concern was will it hit the deck before I get to the Tx, might be tempted to try a left hand launch thus enabling me to keep thumb on elevator !!!! oh that could be the next question who uses thumbs and who uses 2 fingers on Tx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lee Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Posted by Chris Barlow on 22/11/2015 11:47:04: But back to the OP, Foamies, just fling 'em slightly upwards. Err, does that apply to my 5.5kg foam T-28? There are foamies, and there are foamies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 For the Bixler, use about 2/3 power and it launch it straight and level nose slightly up, it will start to dip but you should have plenty of time to get on the elevator to pick it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Jones Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Chris, you are a man of experience and common sense with understanding of model flight for sure. Thank you for passing on you're wisdom to to Foamy brigade, The posted title is Hand Launching ( any tips ) Posted by alan robertson 3 on 20/11/2015 12:54:50: Just wondering if anyone like me does not like hand launching (solo), I always find you are in a state of non control for a split second till you get your 2 hands back on the Tx at the moment I have a bixler 2 which takes off no probs with the landing gear fitted when ground condition permit but I am worried about a hand launch due to the down thrust of the motor !! any advise please? My Video was clearly not appropriate for the above model . A better video would of been one that shows the Bixler 2 being Hand Launched or a least similar Foam Glider . Simon shows a video of his model being Hand Launched which although having two motors is of a similar type . And although being very light, from a standing launch still drops showing that it has yet to gain flying speed . Mine has a very tiny 4 inch prop which is at the back of a very large bulbous body and after my running hand launch my model also sinks to ground Granted not as much as Simon`s , But if i had of thrown my model from a standing position what would of been the result ? . As already pointed out Hand Launching models is NOT a simple case of just chuck it . What makes a model fly is Airspeed , if there is no wind there no airspeed , how fast can you throw you're model ? Some models are lighter than others , some have better wing loading that others , some have large props others small . One thing they all have in common is that they need the appropriate airspeed to fly . Hand Launching any tips or advice Humm ................... Let think on that one . Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Posted by Stephen Jones What makes a model fly is Airspeed , if there is no wind there no airspeed , how fast can you throw you're model ? Good question. A baseball can be thrown at up to 105 mph by a trained athlete. As weight increases, throwing speed decreases. A 3kg weight can be thrown at about 20 mph by an average male adult. Models aren't usually dead weight (slope soarers excepted) and contribute appreciable thrust - what effect this has on throwing speed is difficult to quantify without some detailed figures and maths but will increase throwing speed and provide continuing acceleration after launch (assuming max airspeed hasn't been attained!) Most people self launching a model don't achieve much above a slow jog - especially when co-ordinating a meaningful throw. Carrying a transmitter in one hand and a model overhead in the other over uneven grass would slow even Usain Bolt quite a lot, I'm sure! My personal experience is that I have had positive results with a wide variety of models throwing from a standing position, putting appropriate effort into the launch power and direction. When my own models have been launched for me, I have had more "situations" from those insisting on running throws. This isn't to say that an expert can't launch consistently from a run, but I've yet to launch a model that needed a run - my arm has always been sufficient. I can provide a full arm's length of acceleration while using the other hand to steady the model for example. There may be exceptions but in general terms, I feel that inexperienced people (this was a request for tips from a relative beginner after all) are better advised to concentrate on an accurate launch from a stable position. Edited By Martin Harris on 22/11/2015 13:42:55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcaddict Posted November 22, 2015 Author Share Posted November 22, 2015 BIXLER UPDATE !! just hand launched the bixler 2 - dont know why I was worried about flew right out of my right hand straight & level (about 3/4 throttle) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Barlow Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Posted by John Lee on 22/11/2015 12:31:24: Posted by Chris Barlow on 22/11/2015 11:47:04: But back to the OP, Foamies, just fling 'em slightly upwards. Err, does that apply to my 5.5kg foam T-28? There are foamies, and there are foamies. I know of an ex GB javelin thrower who could probably launch it! Saw him launch an under powered F16 EDF at the Nationals evening flight line & it was probably the fastest the model had ever flown! Unfortunately when it slowed down under it's own EDF power it dropped down onto the tarmac! Alan glad you got it away OK in the end. Not as critical as you thought? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Green Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 I saw some of the most graceful hand-launches ever, performed by Bruce Porteous at the Winterton RCMF fly-in, with his and his son Miles' Dick Stouffer 'Simplex' models. These were text-book launches, no throw whatsoever, just a fast run and release. The Simplex is renowned for tip-stalling at low speed and Bruce had it down to a tee, him & Miles must have had a dozen flights each, all perfectly hand launched. The fast run and release method suited these models and their tiny diesel engines. To suggest there is one method that suits all is absurd, especially if the proposed method is to stand still and toss it like a bean-bag at a school fete ! Cheers Phil Edited By Phil Green on 22/11/2015 15:26:06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiltshire Flyer Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Posted by Phil Green on 22/11/2015 08:44:35: Are you 'anti-runners' seriously suggesting that any model, regardless of type, power, weight, & configuration can be hand-launched by a simple toss from standstill? unless you're a foamy-only flyer, you stick to lightweights or your models are massively overpowered, then that generalisation is just ridiculous! There you go WF, you found another! how big is the van? Cheers Phil Lol! I need a much bigger van! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Wilson Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 With my EasyStar (aka Bixler) I found it important not to put on too much power at launch. The high motor position will push it into the ground until it atains flyimng speed. As Alan found 3/4 throttle, level throw and wait for the airspeed to come up. It is probbably my learning to fly with very low powered balsa trainers that I have the opinion a good push level or slightly down is the safest for hand launching. A nose up throw would invariably lead to a stall, wing drop & crash. Of course we have very generously powered (overpowered?) craft now that will almost pull out of your hand without a throw. Witness my indoor foamies that are launched vertical and push the nose over when you get altitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil67 Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Alan, I was out today with a Bixler 2 - bought ages ago but never flown until today.. Also new to hand launch. Stunning weather with no wind. Left hand launch, 3/4 thottle, slight dip and away. A joy to fly with a bit of wellie for smoother turns. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcaddict Posted November 22, 2015 Author Share Posted November 22, 2015 off on a tangent now - can the bixler 2 be used for mild aerobatics - I would be a bit worried that the wings snapped !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Barlow Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Have a look at Spocktra50 channel on YouTube for what a Bixler can & can't do, and what breaks them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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