Kit builders, what would you like???

IanN · May 3, 2016

Posted by RICHARD WILLS on 03/05/2016 08:36:56:

Its a tricky path to walk isnt it? Some of the points I agree with , Anything that is already available in kit or ARTF form may not be such a good bet , For example , why wouldnt people just buy the well proven Topflite P47 or the previously available B25 (hanger9 ?) .

I do understand that.

With the 63" Top Flite P47 kit at c £210 in most outlets, you'd need to be "different" enough in order to succeed

If you could get a few inches bigger - say c68/70" - at around £175/180 that might tempt a few. No idea if that's do-able or not?

gillyg1 · May 3, 2016

Personally the p47 doesn't do it for me .And there's plenty out there of various sizes.so why not get a plan and scale it up.If that's what "floats your boat"

MattyB · May 3, 2016

Posted by Cuban8 on 03/05/2016 12:03:47:

Posted by Bob Cotsford on 03/05/2016 11:42:36:

"The people on this thread like building so it may simply be that if you look at say the Fw190 , you could say lots of ARTFs around, don't bother, but if you want to make one ? Plan packs just seem a bit.... "bitty" .

Now this surprised me. When I was looking for a 190 ARTF last year I found three.

BlackHorse 1.20 size - nice, but covered in sticky back plastic (which is a pain to repair) and £320!

TopFlite 'Giant' - too big and £500!

or there's the FMS foamy.

Sometimes more expensive too" - not 'arf!

As for having everything in the box - nice in theory, but only if the accessories are of usable quality and not like the that supplied by Ripmax, Seagull, VQ etc..

RIPMAX quote £399 but they're available for around the £350 mark. Far too expensive and I really can't see many being sold at that price bearing in mind the sticky back finish and the extras needed to finish it. For me, ARTFs at this price have lost their attraction and I'd rather spend the money on a build.

Here's my 2ps worth... There seems to be evidence that the balsa ARF suppliers are having issues. Clearly the foamies have taken considerable volume out of their business, and the variety of balsa warbirds in particular has reduced as a result of the FMS 1400 sized models and their competitors.

This seems to be having two effects. Firstly the ARF balsa warbirds that are left get more expensive, especially in the UK where there are several brands that are not even distributed here (Phoenix is one that springs to mind). Secondly the reduced volumes appear to be causing distributors like HH to have issues actually sourcing reliable manufacturers to make their balsa ARFs. The most obvious casualty is Hangar 9 - apparently their 60 sized Mustang and P47, the 20cc Corsair and the 30cc Spit are all going out of production after the batch that is on the water hits model shops, reducing choice even further.

What does this mean long term? It's difficult to know, but I would hope it leaves a gap in the market for manufacturers like Richard to produce easy to build laser cut kits at the £150-250 mark. To appeal to "balsa ARF refugees" such as myself (I did used to build before my second daughter came along and the workshop became a bedroom, honest guv...!) those kits will need to be pretty complete (we don't tend to have as many odds and ends lying around as established builders), and the importance of easy assembly can't be overstated. Covering there's not much you can do about, but the assembly of the key components needs to be easy with good instructions so a strong, light, straight model will result. For that market I would say plan packs are not going to fly off the shelves, and they probably offer significantly less margin for the supplier in terms of making a profit.

Edited By MattyB on 03/05/2016 13:41:39

Jon H · May 3, 2016

Posted by john stones 1 on 03/05/2016 10:38:48:

Nothing difficult about sourcing a few materials really nor planning a build as it moves on.

I have no interest in a Hurricane but thought we where being asked for opinions, and what on earth has a model shop got to do with a kit most would be buying by post anyway ?

John

I do agree that for an experienced kit builder with access to a good shop its not problem. But not everyone is close to a shop, and if the reason you went for a plan pack in the first place was to avoid the poor quality balsa kits of old were famous for, then you need a shop locally to pick and choose it yourself.

Given that Richard has access to all of the balsa suppliers and splits his balsa deliveries into what would be good for wings or tails or whatever, that issue of only being supplied with rock hard heavy wood is gone.

The horns/hinges etc supplied with my Hurricane kit are perfectly satisfactory and the ones i didnt use due to my mods have gone in my spares box for the future.

Also consider the plight of a newcomer to kit building. Someone who entered flying with an ARTF's and didnt spend his teenage years with a tube of glue and a knife putting together balsa gliders and the like. He has seen kit built models from his club mates or here on forum threads and he has decided he wants in on stronger more personal model but he is a guy who lacks experience and needs a kit with as many of the bits there as possible, cut from the right wood with good instructions. To give him a pile of laser cut parts, a cowl and a canopy and then expect him to work out the rest is not likely to fill him with enthusiasm. This is exactly what happened with our club winter build. We had a mix of experienced and novice builders all building the same kit and even the extremely simple Yak Richard supplied caused some head scratching for the total newbie in our group. But, he muddled through and with pointers from the rest of us is making good progress. Had the kits not been as simple/complete as they were he would not have participated.

Bob, i agree with you about the 190. I am not a fan of the D series and the only one available thats not a total epic at the scale we are talking about is from Tony N. its a lovely looking model and has a superb outline, but once added up its not cheap and this did put me off it. Which is a real shame.

All of the BH warbirds suffer from that sticky plastic covering and the retracts they supply are not to clever either.

Cuban8 · May 3, 2016

It seems to me that we all might be in a win-win situation. The attraction of mid-size balsa/ply scale ARTFs is waning (clearly noticeable in both of my clubs) and given the price hikes, will probably disappear shortly. There is an obvious market for builders just waiting to be tapped either in full kit form or as a short kit option.

Even the foamy revolution and fly-in-an -afternoon option will be become jaded with people wanting more than a quick glue together job after a while. You may laugh, but the model that's given me best £/fun ratio is the little HK foamy Vampire EDF that will be taking to the air again for its third season now the weather's getting a bit better. I wouldn't want to fly it all of the time though, or be stuck with only that type of aeroplane, with very little scope for originality and the reward of constructing something myself.

Edited By Cuban8 on 03/05/2016 14:15:20

Lorenz Mueller · May 3, 2016

There's another angle to short kits: Not living in the UK a short kit would save guys like me from paying extremely high postage fees for big slabs of balsa we can get locally and just having to pay for the parts that are a real bother to produce. Just building the PSS Skyhawk, working out great up to now...

IanN · May 3, 2016

Posted by gillyg1 on 03/05/2016 13:12:44:
And there's plenty out there of various sizes.so why not get a plan and scale it up.If that's what "floats your boat"

Well, surely you could say that about pretty much any subject? Which surely renders this whole thread meaningless

I do plan build, and could if I wanted to. The point is that Richard has asked for suggestions, received lots, and if that results in him producing a subject that really appeals to me then - for the convenience of building from a kit (for the reasons which others have already put very well) - I for one will support that by buying and building one

gillyg1 · May 3, 2016

Ian if you've read my previous posts. Yes I will, and have bought from Richard.just the p47 doesn't appeal to me.I was offering a solution to scale up a plan.Yes as could be said for any plan i know.As fo a kit I'll go with the Tempest of around 65/70" w/s.with the chin to hide my engine ,Lazer.as already mentioned.

RICHARD WILLS · May 4, 2016

It must be me being a bit of a skinflnt / tightwad etc . But when the big manufacturers started producing big and expensive scale ARTFs (over £300 upward) I did wonder who was actually going to buy one. The problem with our hobby is that one little mechanical or electrical failure can reduce a £1000 to scrap in seconds.

At the bottom end , you have HK selling off VK semi scale planes for around £70 , but they are not close enough scale to appeal to us . So in theory there should always be a place for the middle ground which as someone said is the "close to scale " club size practical Warbird between £140 -£180.

I have a few Toplfilte kits stashed for "one day " , very nice too . But they've been in my loft for ten years so far at least . I guess thats why I predominantly stuck to the 56" stuff . You can see the end of the build the day you open the box and in most cases , you can see the end all the way through . That is important for most of us .

I know Ive been pushing the twin thing as well , but it does give you a lot of bang for buck . Most big single engined fighters get pricey real quick , but the 6ft twin is unusual ,without being overly expensive . The power trains either electric or IC can be £100 per side if you go down my route.

For those of us that have built a few Warbirds (not necessarily mine) would enjoy the challenge and seeing the distinctive shapes in the air is very rewarding .

On the Single front (and outside of this thread ) we do have a prototype 72" La7 being built . Should be ideal for Jons Lasers or any other similar 20-25cc motor.

If anyone wants to follow The High Wycombe club's winter build with say half a dozen of our kits I would be quite happy to help . It is a good way to get those ready to move on from the Artf world into the simpler side of "proper building " . I did the same as Jon two years back and it was really good fun . I'd recommend keeping to the same type if possible though . We do discount the club too as long as they give fair warning .

I assure you that building the 88 with no "extra details" takes no longer than building our Yak . We built the Yaks in three evenings in a village hall ! Ready to cover stage ,and add gear .

Makesyou think doesnt it?

Jon H · May 4, 2016

My Hurricane would have been done ages ago if I had not been adding things left right and centre. But, the added details do pay off. Just check out Brians Yak, built, much modified, detailed and flown in about 3 months with building time after work while balancing family and the usual.

Les Warrington · May 10, 2016

Hi, I am one of those new to building kits, having left balsa in my teens. (Don't ask!)

I have been flying moulded electric gliders for several years, but decided I wanted a scale model. I had no pre-conceptions except that I have been sold on electric power; clean, reliable, flexible. My main criteria were good scale accuracy, cost and portability. I perused on-line model purveyors, and quickly discounted the foam ARTF. I just don't trust their strength and robustness. ARTF wood ships were considered, but I didn't want to commit to something too expensive or too big. Hangar 9, YT, Top Flite, all fell into this category. I guess my shortlist was TN and Warbirds, and Warbirds won out because they offered the right Spitfire variant, at the right size that was designed for electric. Richard would also work with a potential customer! That is important!! So, I've been building my Spitfire MkIX for the past year now, obviously with gaps due to work and travels.

So, what do I think to building from a "flat pack" as a newbie? A nice challenge, more so to start with because Richard had forgotten to include the plan. My other main resource for checking that I am doing things right is a build forum. These (you guys) are great to give confidence.

So, where does this leave my contribution to Richard's dilemma. He and I have had long (international) conversations on this. And I believe that, notwithstanding the airplane chosen, he needs to differentiate himself from the competition. I don't mean just by the subject, but by the total package: by quality, customer support, self-build benefits, scale accuracy, and price.

There were earlier comments in this thread about how complete the kit should be. Well, I do have a model store within driving distance but the truth is that my internet was often my source of non-kitted items. So, in today's world, I am not sure that a "kit" will sink or swim because of how complete it is. The only things that MUST be included are those things that are unique to the subject; mouldings, undercarriage, etc. Otherwise, include either a comprehensive list of needed parts / wood or kit up various degrees of those parts. This should not be a deal-breaker.

What would give a newbie confidence? (And without newbie's we'd be a dying breed.) I've mentioned a build log. I'd add some feedback comments to Richard's website, praising how easy it is and how well the kits come together. How a self-build gives all those customization options (or not, depending on personal choice). etc. So, Richard: get on with it!!

Subjects? I'm not ready for a twin yet. But, with my expert contribution, I am sure that Richard can do even better in the design arena than he has with the excellent Spitfire. I didn't have access to my workshop over the winter, but will do for 2016 / 2017, and am looking for a high-performance Spitfire successor to fill those winter days. I'd go with a little bigger. I've seen Sea Fury proposed. That would get me going.

with best wishes to all,

Les

Les Warrington · May 10, 2016

OK, I said that I'm not ready for a twin. But I when I do, I would like a DH Hornet or Sea Hornet. Any supporters?

Les

Jon H · May 10, 2016

Hi les

The hornet gets a thumbs up from me but the problem is it will always be in the shadow of its brother and this could harm sales.

That said, it has been mentioned several times through the thread so never say never.

Simon B · May 10, 2016

I've said it before, but those VQ kits can be bought from tax paying UK suppliers for less money than Hobbyking are selling them. Check Inwood if you don't believe me!

Jon H · May 10, 2016

Unless I am being really special I cant see VQ kits listed on inwoods site....

RICHARD WILLS · May 10, 2016

My Mum said i was special too .

I think she was right because I cant see it either ,

help us out Simon .

gillyg1 · May 10, 2016

I'll go along with the Hornet as well, if you decide on that .

Simon B · May 10, 2016

Pretty sure they did them at some point. Looking at HobbyStores i can see my point about HK not being the cheapest point to buy at is still valid: http://www.hobbystores.co.uk/default.asp?WPG=HOB_HomePage1&PageNumber=1&s=c:030,b:VQModels

Jon H · May 11, 2016

From what i recall when working at another shop that sold VQ the prices listed there, in combination with those stock indicators, suggests they were clearing that line.

That said, shopping around is never a bad idea!

Lorenz Mueller · May 11, 2016

If it is a Hornet, then Christmas is early this year! I already have two plan sets, but would buy a kit as soon as it is available.

Lorenz

Graeme Poke · May 11, 2016

Hornet for me too please. Rarely seen but lovely aircraft. Cheers Graeme

MattyB · May 11, 2016

Posted by RICHARD WILLS on 04/05/2016 17:31:37: