Crash at Old Warden Pageant

[i12fly]

I was at Old Warden Edwardian Pageant last Sunday, sadly there was a strong cross wind so no WW1 or earlier flew. Perhaps because of this a large model (Wilga style? 150cc) was given a slot only to dip a wing and crash vertically in from about 60ft not far away from the crowd line and the full size Hawker Demon. It rather looked like pilot error in the strong cross wind, when the wing dropped I knew he'd lost it, the plane was facing the crowd and insufficient height to recover. The possible consequences make me shudder, I think it was very irresponsible and I hope Shuttleworth have learnt their lesson. The wind conditions were poor and at very least the separation distance to crowd line (and irreplaceable full size planes) was totally inadequate. It certainly gave a poor impression of our hobby to the thousands who witnessed the incident.

I hope they never fly models within a full size show ever again.

[Phil 9]

does the fact it crashed into a safe area demonstrate the safety distances were sufficient?

[Jon H]

In the past when i have been up there a mode display often precedes the full size action. Normally the models operate from the main runway giving more than sufficient distance from the crowd line. The display would have come under the CAA rules, just like any other, and with the full size aircraft present i have no doubt the rules were followed to the T.

Without a video of the crash or photo of its final resting place its hard to draw a conclusion as to where this model was. If the model was quite big then remember how depth perception changes with model size. It may not have been where you thought it was

Also, your super dramatic thread title scared me, i was afraid one of the full size went down and i didnt hear about it!

Edited By Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 11/08/2016 08:41:48

[Charlie Cox]

I hate posts like this, which is why I don't say a lot on here,

However, the Wilga (that's what the model was) was being flown by a friend of mine.

The model was over 20 kgs, and was correctly set up, documented and the pilot holds the appropriate proficiency certs. As it happens, he is a very experienced and proficient, as well as likable, helpful guy. I would trust him with any of my models.

The model, has been built, inspected and test flow under the LMA rules and guidelines and was used for aero-towing quite a bit with its own dedicated transmitter.

He didn't lose the model in the sense of him getting it wrong at all, he lost all control, which has been replicated on the ground. He had a few seconds to think about it when it all went dead and tried a few logical and thought out inputs but nothing happened.

So. It crashed. Funnily enough, within the safety buffer zone, as set out in the appropriate guidelines. Yes, not far from the crowd, or the Hawker Hart, and he is VERY aware of the fact that it was,although still within the zone, it was close. Think what have happened if there were no minimum seperations USA style.

I really hope the OP isn't the guy was sarcastically gave the pilot some grief, in front of the whole crowd as the bits were taken back to the pits.

I, for one feel very sorry for the Wilga pilot. He has invested a considerable, hard earned sum into his model, was flying for the entertainment of the crowd, not for personal gain, loses said model then gets grief from some know all idiot in the crowd, then also on here.

Poor impression of the hobby. Please!!!!

Charlie C

[John F]

Posted by i12fly on 11/08/2016 00:51:27:

It certainly gave a poor impression of our hobby to the thousands who witnessed the incident.

I hope they never fly models within a full size show ever again.

Well, that's a knee jerk reaction if ever there was one!

You could have half a mile separation but one in a thousand loss of control situations might well mean a direct hit on the crowd!

As Charlie has confirmed; what you saw, interpreted and laid judgement upon was completely separate from the truth.

Having said that a full size aircraft can cover vast distances very quickly so a minimum separation is totally futile.

Your dramatised judgement and knee jerk reaction I would expect from someone who knows nothing of our hobby but the aircraft crashed within the safety zone which means that, in reality, nothing happened.

Why report it as if it skimmed someone's head?

It crashed - into the safety zone. (Jedi mind trick ) Nothing to see here - move along.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Owdlad]

I'm sorry but why did they fly in poor conditions? That to me is error of judgement.......or pilot error.

[John F]

As Charlie stated the model crashed due to loss of control (dead) which he could replicate later on the ground, rather than due to wind.

[Charlie Cox]

Posted by Owdlad on 11/08/2016 15:13:54:

I'm sorry but why did they fly in poor conditions? That to me is error of judgement.......or pilot error.

Its entirely down to your interpretation of poor weather.

The Wilga pilot was well within normal model flying limitations at the time.

As I stated above. The accident was purely down to a technical failure within the model.

I'm not going to go into details, I have no need. All I will say was that the install was first rate and the equipment was all high end equipment.

Charlie C

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

It don't read any better stating a 20 kg + model lost all control either do's it ? am I questioning the pilot or the organisers ? No, I think the inquests best left to those involved though.

John

[bert baker]

Anything can happen at any given time for any reason.

Best we all stay in doors and do nothing.

[Jez Harris 1]

I was spotting for the pilot flying the Wilga.
The conditions were completely within limits and as stated before its flown many times and is rigorously set up with everything backed up via a top of the range powerbox.
It saddens me that the original poster has had such a public go at someone with clearly no information about the cause of the crash.

The a/c was being flown well within its limit when all radio contact was lost..no failsafe was triggered so it all pointed to total power loss despite every redundancy you can imagine on a plane worth several thousand pounds.

The plane was in a turn when the incident happened leading to a spiral descent.
No amount of stick waggling did anything.
The aircraft came down in the safe area. This is why a full 50+ metre separation was being used between pilot and crowds and the parked aircraft.

The batteries were demonstrated to the authorities at Old Warden following the incident as fully charged, as was the complexity and diligence of the electronic installation.

The powerbox in use is designed to offer full redundancy with twin receivers in case one fails as well as twin batteries designed to switch if either battery fails.

Everything pointed to a powerbox failure.

As for the comment by Owdlad about poor pilot decision to fly in the weather conditions...Rubbish! He is a fantastically skilled display pilot used to demonstrating large WW1 models in wind far stronger and gusty than those on Sunday.

It was an accident.

You owe an apology!!

Edited By Jez Harris 1 on 11/08/2016 18:11:47

[Owdlad]

No apology necessary.

On the opening post read the first sentence.....Planes were grounded because of the poor cross wind conditions.

Any doubt you don't fly ( no matter how proficient you are)

Edited By Owdlad on 11/08/2016 18:23:48

[Jez Harris 1]

Really?

Are you saying nothing flew on Sunday?

Funny that..I thought they only grounded the Ww1 stuff for whom it was too windy. As did we with our Dawn Patrol models.



Man up and apologise.

[Phil 9]

Posted by Owdlad on 11/08/2016 18:21:37:

No apology necessary.

On the opening post read the first sentence.....Planes were grounded because of the poor cross wind conditions.

Any doubt you don't fly ( no matter how proficient you are)

Edited By Owdlad on 11/08/2016 18:23:48

that was for full size, the model may have been able to angle its take of run more into the wind as it would be small enough not to have to stick to the central line of the full size runway

[Jez Harris 1]

More like the model is totally capable of a fully controlled cross wind take off.

Unlike the grounded Ww1 stuff.

Unless Owdlad in his obviously biased or confused state is suggesting the weather caused the radio failure????

[Owdlad]

You state everything points to powerbox failure. with twin redundancy how can this be? Can you please clarify? reading between the lines the powerbox still worked after the crash

I suspect that the wind got under one wing pushing the model into a spiral dive.

[Jez Harris 1]

Total powerbox failure = nothing at all.

Simple enough for you?

You lie in your opening dribble stating you saw the wind get under a wing. With the wind being right to left that would have blown the aircraft away from the crowd wouldn't it?

Jeez..

Give it up.
It was an accident

End of.

[Jon H]

The power box itself is used to manage to the two rx and two power systems so that if one rx or one battery snuffs it then you are still all good. Clearly if the powerbox itself gives up the ghost then nothing is holding the system together and down she comes.

Personally this is why I will never use a powerbox as I feel that they still represent a single point of failure in a large model. I would rather have two rx's that control half the model each and can operate in isolation. I did this with an over 20kg spitfire I was helping with and the LMA gave it the thumbs up.

I have to say I'm a bit shocked by some of the posts here. We know nothing of the incident other than the information reported here and cherry picking pieces of info, then using them out of context is far from fair.

A cross wind component of more than about 5 kts is probably enough for them to not wish to risk flying their original WWI full size aircraft. But for a model? bring it on, its only 5kts.

While there have been many occasions when I have seen display pilots make a pigs ear of it, there are also many where there has been an underlying issue so you cant just jump to assuming he fluffed it

[kevin b]

I agree. Double redundancy and state of the art technology never goes wrong ! (See every RC radio manufacturer for details).

Yes, if nobody was controlling the model, then the wind would get under the wing forcing it to crash. Sensibles init ?

Owdlad, quit while you are losing. There are a lot of knowledgeable people out there laughing at you (I am not one). When at bottom of hole, stop digging.

Maybe the mods should close this one.

[Owdlad]

Posted by Jez Harris 1 on 11/08/2016 19:35:13:
Total powerbox failure = nothing at all.

Simple enough for you?

You lie in your opening dribble stating you saw the wind get under a wing. With the wind being right to left that would have blown the aircraft away from the crowd wouldn't it?

Jeez..

Give it up.
It was an accident

 

End of.

Please read my post  fully as you have miss quoted me

You state it looks like powerbox failure

Does the powerbox unit work on the bench?

Edited By Owdlad on 11/08/2016 19:57:49

Edited By Owdlad on 11/08/2016 20:01:11

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Close it now ? looks like both sides have a spade to me, dumb thumbs or radio to blame makes not much difference other than to egos, you got any other ways we may cause an injury to someone you wish to highlight ? leave the inquest to the pilot and organisers.

John

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

At this point can we point out the following taken from the Code of Conduct:

"Please be accurate and do not use the forum to spread false information, uninformed assumptions or what you think you've heard - always be factual based on your own experiences and knowledge."

There is a good deal of this thread that falls foul of that. A great deal of speculation trying to pass itself off as fact. This is not acceptable. There is, as we have said on many occassions, a world of difference between discussing various possibilities or expressing a theory or view on the one hand - and promotiong that same material as if it were indisputable fact - which of course it isn't.

We will close this now, ask some of the contributors to this thread - to reflect carefully on the above comment. Future infringments of this aspect of the CoC will result in formal sanction.

BEB