Design & Build FW 200 Condor / Syndicato

[Robert Parker]

Hi All,

Having cleared my building bench, I was all set to start building my next project, the TN Sunderland, then looking at my Airfix kit of the Sunderland the box art depicts a Sunderland in conflict with a FW Condor, then this idea came in to my head. Having built a Stirling from scratch then why not have a go at the Condor.

After some browsing on the web plenty of pictures were downloaded along with some 3 view drawings, I also purchased a 1/72 kit as well.

Looking at my downloaded material and the 1/72nd kit I can see that this project will be challenging as well as making a compromise with the undercarriage arrangement, metalwork is not my strong point.

I fancy a civilian plane for a change having made a few bombers recently I felt like a change and something different.

The full size had a wingspan of 32.85m and a length of 23.46m. I wanted a wingspan of around 72" as it is a good size to transport / store and fly. Having crunched a few numbers I arrived at a scale of 1/18th that would give a wingspan of 73", which makes scaling up from the 1/72nd kit easy as all the numbers will be multiplied by 4.

So we have a wingspan of 73" a length of 51 1 /2" and a target weight of 8lbs to 9lbs

Functions: 6

Power train: 4 x Turnigy 2830-11 1000kv with Plushy 30Amp ESC's and 8x4 props (subject to design issues). Each motor will give 300 Watts giving a total of 1200 Watts.

Today, my wife was working so I had 6 hours to make a start on the design.

I'm doing this the old fashioned way and straight on to paper

So after 5 hours I have a basic fuselage with formers. The bottom drawing is the side view and above the plastic model is the plan view with half an elevator and I have made a start on the cross sections which have not come out too clearly. I took a bit of thinking on how to set out the outline but I drew around the plastic kit and put a datum line from the centre of the nose to the end of the fuselage then using the calipers measured the distance above and below the datum line and with a little help from some spruce and my son we joined all of the reference points. Still a lot of work to do on the fuselage but a start has been made.

Construction of the model will be balsa and ply using a combination of sheet and planking for the fuselage with the wings being fully sheeted in the centre section and an open structure on the outer panels.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

[Colin Leighfield]

All the ingredients for a great flier Robert, but you're right about the undercarriage. Without that amount of movement fore and aft it might have c of g issues as well! I'm sure you'll find the right compromise though.

[Alan Gorham_]

Robert, great idea for a seldom built model.

One thing, I think your power allowance is way, way over the top. In my experience of electric multi engine scale models, you need way less than 100W/lb power loading, but you are aiming for more than 100W/lb.

That means you are spending more than you need on batteries and escs and possibly motors.

At the very least you could look to prop down - I think scale diameter props would be significantly smaller than the 8" ones you are proposing?

For illustration, here's three of my models that are more than adequately powered.

100" Lancaster 45W/lb

73" Beaufort 79W/lb

792 Halifax 70W/lb

To be honest they all have an excessive amount of power, but I use the battery weights to help achieve balance.

Food for thought?

[eflightray]

If it helps, I found a build on a German RC site of a 2 metre Condor --

**LINK**

Hopefully there is a way of translating the German to English.

Ray.

[Robert Parker]

Thanks for your comments guys.

Colin, Yes, I did have something in mind but after today's flying or attempts to fly with my other models I need to rethink my design, with the connecting shaft between the retract unit and the main undercarriage. I used 5mm piano wire but this seems to soft for the forces it has to endure even on a gentle landing.

Alan, what fantastic models you have, Yes I might rethink the power train having flown electric for the first time (I'm normally an IC flier), today in over twenty years. although the motors I had in mind are not that expensive but as you say it's the batteries that cost.

Eflightray, A very interesting build blog which has given me some ideas and even though written in German,a picture paints a thousand words. Food for thought.

Once again thank you

Regards

Robert

[Robert Parker]

Hi All,

Just spent 5 hours working on the wing drawing, not as difficult as I thought for the basic outline, I need to spent a little time thinking about the wing / nacelle layout and also the undercarriage construction and operation. The undercarriage layout will determine where I position the main spar in the wing, so for the moment I have left it out.

Just by coincidence the nacelle diameter is exactly the same as my Wellington bomber I made earlier in the summer 78mm, in which I used hand soap bottles. Now that's a stoke of luck.

I'll have to use 7" props as the distance between the nacelles is 7 3/4" and the same from the fuselage.

The inner nacelles are very long at 160mm in front of the leading edge on the original aircraft the main gear retracted into the section in front of the leading edge.

On looking at my three view drawings I noticed that the top of the inner section of the wing is flat which will making the easier as I will not need to angle the ribs housing the nacelles as I had to do on the Stirling.

The whole wing,

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

[Robert Parker]

Hi All,

I have done a bit more drawing and a lot of thinking and I am now happy with the compromise I've made with the undercarriage. I was hoping to have the retracts rotating forwards but this would not work trying to keep the axle point in line with the leading edge of the wing as per full size, so I have had to go for a rearwards retract and angle it slightly to get everything to work. I even removed a retract unit from my Stirling which has now been repaired, and made a temporary leg and operated the unit over the drawing and it just fits.

Now having sorted out the retracts I can now position the main spars on the drawing

I have also drawn the tailpane and elevators and following on from my Stirling repairs I have added a spar top and bottom just to add a bit of strength.

I still have a way to go with the finer details of construction but it is coming along nicely.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

[Robert Parker]

Hi All,

I have not been able to do any drawing in the past few weeks, as I had an operation on my shoulder back in December and I'm in a brace / sling for a few more weeks so I'll have to be a patient patient. I have a lot of spare time on my hand/s and off work until the end of March so as soon as I can get my drawing arm working again I'll be making progress once more.

I have however, acquired, yet to be delivered, a 1/72nd model kit of the airliner version, which had slightly different nacelles than the military version, so I'll be interested to see if there any other variation between them so I can alter my drawing before I get too advanced.

One thing I have done looked at the motors and esc's as Alan suggested and found some in HK. At this moment in time it is a bit of a stab in the dark regarding AUW but aiming for around the 9 lb mark but trying for lighter.

Regards

Robert

[Robert Parker]

Hi All,

Well I'm getting totally frustrated, just looking at my modelling bench and not being able to do anything, but it has not stopped me working a few problems out and working out how I'm going to approach the build.

Firstly, I have worked out the CoG using an online calculator that I was able to submit data for a two panel wing, when looking along the wing drawing it almost reminds me of an early glider style, bearing in mind that this aircraft was designed and built in the inter-war years in which time the German aircraft producers were building a lot of gliders at the time due to sanctions put on them after the Great War, the CoG was further back than I anticipated but looking at the wing shape with the swept back outer panels it is understandable. Whilst on the web calculator I had a shock with the wing loading with my guesstimate of 9lbs this came out as 45oz/sqft ouch. To get this down to a more realistic 26 oz/sqft the weight will be 6 1/2 lbs!!! Like me a diet is called for. I know the 9 lbs was a guesstimate but based on my Sterling.

The FW200 has a wing plan similar to the Lancaster, my FW wing has 4sq feet of wing area and so does my TN Lancaster, whilst my Sterling has 6 sq feet of wing area, so 30% increase in area.

Therefore, I looked over my drawings and made notes on what could be made lighter, the wings I reduced the main spars from 9 x 9 to 6 x 6 spruce and to add lightening holes in the ribs, use less lite ply in the nacelles with the exception of the inners, omit the full wing sheeting on the outer panels and add cappings to the ribs to form an open structure, reduce by one size thickness the sheeting to the nacelles to 3/32nd and reduce the ribs to 1/16th on the outer panels. With the fuselage I had a re-think on the design which I had intended to do the same as I had for the Stirling which was a monocoque design, I will add stringers and for the upper section use a wrap around sheet, instead of using 1/2 sheet for the corners the bottom might remain the same as I had only planned to use 1/4 sheet. The tailplane LE to bed reduced down to 1/4 down from 3/8. I still need to think about the fin and rudder design still not happy yet with this and finally worked on a way to access the esc's in the nacelles without having to make any hatches in the nacelles, a cunning plan if it works.

I have decided to build the fuselage in two halves split down the middle, left and right sides.

Taking a look at the hardware or the known weight, this comes out at 2 3/4lbs, so that it leaves me with 3 3/4 - 4 1/4 lbs for the airframe, covering and paint working on 6 1/2 -7 lbs.

The hardware is as follows (not cast in stone),

Turnigy motors esc's and props, LiPo 3s 5000, E-flite retacts oleos + wheels,

Servos: Turnigy 225MG (2no), Turnigy 113MG (5No) and Corona 239 wing servos (2no). I usually use Hitec servos but looking at the torque, weight and price these give a great weight saving.

Any one had any bad experiences or comment on the above servos, almost seem to good to be true.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

[Robert Parker]

Hi All,

Well over  the past few days I have been complimenting my physiotherapy exercises, or to put it another way I've been back on the drawing board again. I'm allowed to move my arm a little. By doing a bit each day and not as much as I would like I have completed the drawings.

I altered the nacelles as I noticed on the earlier civilian version the nacelle tapered in just behind the cowl whilst on the later military version they were flush also the civilian version the inboard motors / nacelles were shorter.

Below are the what I've done so far.

 

The fin and rudder although straight forward in elevation I was a little unsure as to the section but after some thought I used one from my Chipmunk.

Getting the curve of the formers was a challenge, even moving my hand in an arc was painful

Nacelle formers, N1 has a plate screwed onto it to give access to each of the Esc's instead of making access hatches hopefully.

The shortened nacelle by 30mm and the tapered nacelle, I've managed to find some oleos that are short enough although a little on the chunky side.

Outer nacelles and flap

Balsa, ply and hardware ordered and received so were ready to build, hopefully.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

Edited By Robert Parker on 13/02/2017 17:11:22

[DaveyP]

To me that looks a very complex build, I look forward to your progress with interest

[Robert Parker]

Hi Dave,

I have tried to keep things as simple as I could, but yes there looks to be some interesting times to come especially with the wings and I dare say a tweek or two as I go.

Regards

Robert

[Robert Parker]

Hi All,

It's now time to start building.

As usual for me I'm starting with the tail feathers and using my lightest wood.

On starting the tailplane I could see that what was on paper was not practical on the building board

I had drawn the hardwood braces about three quarters down the tailplane and full span. On cutting the ribs for the spars they were getting smaller and smaller so I stopped at three quarters span otherwise there would be nothing between the spars.

On gluing it all together it looked wrong so I have made a new set of ribs and adjusted the position of the spars further forward. Not the best of starts and I'll make it again tomorrow. Thankfully not a lot of timber wasted.

Tailplane MKI

However, the fin and rudder are coming along nicely

At present, I intend to fit the fin into the tailplane and notch around the TE.

I have started to fine tune the fuselage formers to get the curves symmetrical on the top of the fuselage, a problem with freehand curves, and I am now happy with the results on paper. Hope this comes out on the fuselage as she has some nice curves I hope I can replicate them well enough.

Tomorrow will be a better day and I hope the little hick-up of today was just that.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

[Robert Parker]

Hi All,

Tailplane MKII is well underway as is the fuselage.

That looks much better

The completed fin and rudder only 22g that not too bad considering the size

Left and right fuselage sides all formers marked on 1/8" x 48" long balsa sheet

I started off by pinning down the half stringers (1/4 x 1/8 x 48" then pinning the formers in place dry for a trial fit, then added the main longeron (1/4 x 1/4 x 48" then I placed the secondary longeron on the top outside curve to marked out it's position. I wanted to see how / where it would best fit.

Then glue them all in position and fitted the elevator snake (overlong) So far looking good.

Fuselage side added and bottom sheeting added to the tailplane. I have also made the elevators these have a 1/16th core with riblets on both sides.

Looking from underneath the Condors curves are beginning to show

This is far as I have got today, waiting for the glue to dry.

Tomorrow, I'll lift this side off the board and start the other side.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

Edited By Robert Parker on 17/02/2017 16:48:29

Edited By Robert Parker on 17/02/2017 16:49:48

[Colin Leighfield]

Coming on nicely. Very therapeutic Robert!

[Robert Parker]

Colin, I hope my physiotherapist will be proud of all this additional exercise I'm doing.

Must admit when I was planing and sanding down the fin and tailplane that was painful.

Regards

Robert

[Robert Parker]

Hi All,

I have made the second fuselage side this morning by flipping over the plan and applying a coat of baby oil making it become transparent and then building over it.

Fingers crossed I'll have two sides that match up. We'll find out next time.

Whilst waiting for the glue to dry I have been thinking ahead to finishing the model. I fancy the Aluminium / Black scheme as I have shown in my opening post. I have been thinking about the covering and come up with a some options.

Option A. Tissue and Dope. My preferred option BUT it comes at a cost, Smell, which means working outside and getting grief from SWMBO plus waiting for suitable weather.

Option B. Tissue and Poly C. Never used poly c before and I cannot seem to find a stockist but from what I have read on other threads this afternoon it can be used indoors.

Option C. Tissue and EZ Dope, again never used this. Is this poly c? or something different again?

Option D. Tissue and water based varnish. Again, I have not used this method before but have read a few threads this afternoon.

Just a few thoughts to mull over a damp Sunday afternoon.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

[Robert Parker]

Hi All,

The fuselage is now together, which fitted almost straight off the board with just a bit of fettling here and there.

All nice and straight. After the glue dried I turned the fuselage over and fitted the 3/8" lower fuselage sides which had to be fitted in pieces due to the curvature of the sides whilst still in the jig . I cheated with these and used cyano

Tail wheel assembly fitted and I added a snake for the tail wheel. I have fitted the first plank and cut out the profile of the tail plane, since this shot I added 1/4" balsa to the cut outs to increase the gluing area of the tail plane.

Those servos look lost in the cavernous fuselage, they are mini servos and not standard ones. I used these to keep the weight down just 13g each the three together are still lighter than 1 standard servo.

I used a separate servos for the tail wheel and rudder.

Positioning of the tail assembly. All lined up and check dimensions taken and ready to glue in place.

In the end I opted to scribe the fin over the tail and not build it in to the tail plane. I did think of using carved block for the fillets between the tail plane and the fin but having seen it I will plank instead, this should help keep the weight down at the rear end. I still will need a block at the very rear but this will be small and tapering to nothing almost.

Later on I'm going to glue the tail assembly in place and start cutting all of the planking from 48" sheet balsa.

Tomorrow, planking.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

[Robert Parker]

Hi All,

I have had a very productive past couple of days.

The fuselage is completed to a level I need the wings ready to finish off the wing seat cutouts. I have made a start on the wing outer panels. Does not sound much summed up in one sentence.

Tail group epoxied in place

Planking completed and looking like a hedgehog with just about my entire pin collection. I used balsa cement for the butt joints and alphatic glue on the formers.

Bottom sheeting in place and I realised after the glue had dried that I had not fitted the guide tubes for the closed loop system oops.

Battery box formed, a snug fit for a 3s 6000mAh with plenty of scope forwards and backwards room so I can get the CoG right without adding any weight, hopefully.

Nose block carved from laminated 1/2" sheet, tack glued for now. When I check the CoG if it is too nose heavy I can hollow it out if needed. I need to cut out for the cockpit glazing. Also, the landing light was housed in the nose, if I can source /alter / adapt one to fit. I need 3/4" diameter.

To get it this level hurt a lot, my arm not used to sideways movement of my plane and sanding block. A case of little and often. She is 5" wide at the widest point

Bottom sheeting blended into the sides

Tail end all sanded and shaped, got a bit too carried away with the razor plane, tail block still to do.

Fus set aside and on to the wings, ribs for the outer panels

First out panel, the clamps are holding the halving joint where the spars reduce down from 1/4 x 1/4" to 1/4 x 1/8".

Coming along very nicely so far

Next is to finish off this panel and make the other panel.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Erfolg]

Robert, I am amazed and impressed both with your progress and determination.

Having just returned from a holiday (skiing) where I crashed on a RodelBahn sft tissue damage to both knee tendons), then simultaneously caught a vomiting virus, which has made me less than enthusiastic or capable of anything, you really have my respect.

I do share the same views as some others, where a sedate, non arobatic is concerned, with a generous wing area, 100w per pound is often more than necessary.

As for Poly C, I note that some of the RCME writers use straight Water based varnish with glass cloth. I have used WBV myself and find it great, much easier to use than Finishing epoxies. It is also cheap, with a very small weight addition, whilst producing a tough finish.

I am so impressed,

[Robert Parker]

Percy, Thanks for that I'll look in to it, still mulling the options over.

Erfolg, Sorry to hear of your accident and illness whilst on your skiing holidays.

Thank you for your comments.I must admit it has been a challenge but keeping my elbow tight into my body and extending my fore arm is how I have managed until last week and avoiding any side ways movement especially away from my body. I have looked again at the motors and found some which are a lot more sensible in HK. As for the WBV I am still considering all of the options. Though, I think I must make my mind up soon as it won't be too long before I'll be ready for covering at this rate. I'm already on the second wing panel today.

Get well soon

Regards

Robert

[Robert Parker]

Hi All,

Just a quick update.

I have brought both of the outer panels as far as I can until the wings are joined. Also I have cut out the ribs for the centre wing section, this is going to be the interesting part of the build and the most time consuming, all being well.

Right hand outer panel under way

Servos mounted, tips tacked on and ailerons made.

I have not cut out the flap sections yet I am going to wait until the wings have been put together just to make sure everything aligns up.

Half of the ribs cut out with holes cut out for cable runs and adding lightness. I noticed that when I was double checking the ribs prior to cutting out the notches and flaps that a few errors in marking them out had crept in, I'm keeping to my drawing. My method of transferring the aerofoil to wood is to print them out, cut closely around them and stick them to the wood.

Next, is to cut the remaining ribs and assemble it.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

[Robert Parker]

Hi All,

Just a quick update,

Centre section assembled also I started cutting out the nacelle frames.

I think I made a mistake with these ribs by putting the tabs above the cut out for the flaps, they are so delicate. I have snapped two fitting the rear spar.

Next, before going too far advanced I'm going to have a dry run on the nacelles to see how they fit and line up.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

[Robert Parker]

Hi All,

Another update with mixed results

I had a promising start with the nacelles, fitting all four in place and all lined up, then I made a ply plate for the retract unit and put in place with the oleos and wheel. Problem 1. Not huge I found out that an oleo is thicker than a pencil line and when retracted the oleo struck the lower spar. Solution re-position the retract unit.

Then, I realised that when I drew the front end view of the nacelle I only drew the nacelle side that penetrated through the bulkhead and not shown the rest of the nacelle side, had I done so I would have realised that I had no room for the nacelle sheeting let alone for the taper just behind the cowl. Solution, bring in the sides by 1/8th and add 1/8" spacers to the ribs. By doing so I will loose the taper which was a feature on early versions, if I take them in any further I will be reducing the ply plate for the retract unit a bit too much.

Whilst this was going on I was not happy with the amount of gluing area on the inner nacelles so I made new ones.

Nacelles sides fitted with MKI sides

Retract mock up I will raise by 1/4" and shorten the pin by the same amount. 3" oleos 3" wheel

When retracted the wheel will be just short of the top sheeting. This was taken before I realised about having to put a spacer between the ribs and the nacelle sides.

I knew that this stage was going to be a little on the suck it and see side.

Next, is to flip over the wing and add the missing spars and add the spacers and leading edges and ponder a bit more on the nacelles.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert