Wings and Wheels North Weald 2017

[Bravo Delta]

Went today and thought it was ok for a £12 entry fee , didn't need to leave early due to rain this year!

Nearly bought something on the bring and buy but while mulling it was sold , snooze you lose !

Bought a couple of batteries from Rapid , without having to fork out for shipping they were competitive enough price

Bonus was the full size appearances of a couple of Folland Gnats , took off seperately some time apart , got flybys , and one of them cam back and landed and parked close to the spectator area who got a good close look at the Gnat

 

 

 

Edited By Bravo Delta on 25/06/2017 18:54:03

[ChrisB]

Glad I didn't bother with the 2hr drive South!

[Jon H]

i did struggle to find anyone with anything good to say about the commentary. Aircraft recognition seems to be an issue with a 1930's biplane and a ww2 fighter apparently being very hard to tell apart as the wrong details were read out. Details/info were thin for most displays, over reliance on facebook and emailed links for submitting forms when a simple paper sheet would do. I was discussing it with Neil Tidey who is 75 and has not the slightest need for/interest in facebook and I'm pretty sure his phone is clockwork so there is no 4g for checking email. I am pretty sure most pilots under 40 would not be even remotely involved in all that and I am also not sure how many people would be watching a live stream but each to their own i guess.

Trying to throw in 'awesome' and 'sweet' at every opportunity was pretty cringeworthy and i almost went a hid when he was describing aircraft as 'sexy'.

I do not for one minute suggest that he has an easy job but i personally think we need more of a duxford style informative commentary and less Heart FM DJ. At the end of the day its does not affect me in the slightest, so customer feedback is all that will change things so if there are constructive criticisms then i don't see why W&W should not be contacted. Otherwise nothing will change.

 

From my perspective as a pilot it was very difficult on Saturday and still pretty tricky today. Weather was a big problem, but there seemed to be some operational issues as well which left gaps in the flying. We were under huge pressure from air traffic regarding flying boundaries which only raised the tension for those airside.

I hope those that attended enjoyed the flying, its been a long two days and i need a lie down

 

Edited By Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 25/06/2017 22:16:36

[Nightflyer]

Have to say it had been a few years since I took the family with me to the show and most of the comments myself and my wife would agree with. The main one being that it had shrunk to its heyday. I am Not sure if it is the economic climate, change in modelling or peoples expectations. We went on the Saturday and so also went to the market and I would say even that is smaller so perhaps it is a sign of the times.

It must be hard for the traders to meet cost of attending the show and sales, but without them shows would be poorer still. As for flying maybe the challenge of finding dazzling show stoppers or firsts detracts the search of average or slightly above models and flying for want of a better description on which most shows have been underpinned.

Sadly it did not feel like a family show and looks like in future I won't be taking my family - at least it will cost me less.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[ChrisB]

Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 25/06/2017 22:14:53:

i did struggle to find anyone with anything good to say about the commentary. Aircraft recognition seems to be an issue with a 1930's biplane and a ww2 fighter apparently being very hard to tell apart as the wrong details were read out. Details/info were thin for most displays, over reliance on facebook and emailed links for submitting forms when a simple paper sheet would do. I was discussing it with Neil Tidey who is 75 and has not the slightest need for/interest in facebook and I'm pretty sure his phone is clockwork so there is no 4g for checking email. I am pretty sure most pilots under 40 would not be even remotely involved in all that and I am also not sure how many people would be watching a live stream but each to their own i guess.

Trying to throw in 'awesome' and 'sweet' at every opportunity was pretty cringeworthy and i almost went a hid when he was describing aircraft as 'sexy'.

I do not for one minute suggest that he has an easy job but i personally think we need more of a duxford style informative commentary and less Heart FM DJ. At the end of the day its does not affect me in the slightest, so customer feedback is all that will change things so if there are constructive criticisms then i don't see why W&W should not be contacted. Otherwise nothing will change.

From my perspective as a pilot it was very difficult on Saturday and still pretty tricky today. Weather was a big problem, but there seemed to be some operational issues as well which left gaps in the flying. We were under huge pressure from air traffic regarding flying boundaries which only raised the tension for those airside.

I hope those that attended enjoyed the flying, its been a long two days and i need a lie down

Edited By Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 25/06/2017 22:16:36

I completely agree with you Jon. At LM the commentator was always chatting away with his unique style but that was because most of the aircraft flying were 'his sort of aircraft'. At WP a couple of weeks later, there were long periods where he didn't say anything at all, usually during non 3D type slots,mostly the scale slots.

I agree its not an easy job, and very few people want to do it, but if you are going to be a commentator then you need to appeal to the audience.

Most of the audience at the majority of model flying shows are over 50 and that's probably being conservative. They don't care for facebook, live tweets and all that, they just want to watch the aircraft and know a bit about them. As you say, all the wicked, bad boy type chatter is fine for the 3D Heli and drone racing crowds that are generally younger (under 25) but not for Jim and Arthur who have gone their to see aircraft flying and buy balsa wood, some dope and tissue to build a Junior 60. Commentary needs to fit the audience and personally I much prefer the LMA commentator, as he knows the aircraft, has a chat with the pilots privately first to get the details and is generally up, on what is what. People don't want to know the fine details but the basics of engine, weight, span and type/source of construction is fine. Yes a bit of music to suit the aircraft is nice, wartime music with warbirds etc but not just general Planet Rock or Kiss FM dross for the sake of it.

CB

[Stevo]

General Planet Rock? Cheek!! (OK .. as an ex drummer and guitar buuilder..) But there's nothing here I dont agree with though.

You are spot on with the age demographic, although no drone racing for the U25s, it did sound like Smashy and Nicey. I've not experienced the LMA commentator yet but that sounds spot on. If you don't know what to say then shut up I think rather than all the tired adjectives.

Jon - regards contacting WnW for constructive criticism - I don't mind feeding the comments here forward? Nik has a FBpage too, so even a message to him?

SteveJ

[Jon H]

Posted by Stevo on 26/06/2017 08:40:51:

Jon - regards contacting WnW for constructive criticism - I don't mind feeding the comments here forward? Nik has a FBpage too, so even a message to him?

SteveJ

Yea perhaps this is the way forward. As i say this isnt a witch hunt or anything, but if we can offer him some suggestions on how he can improve his delivery then i would hope he would be on board with that as it wont be long before show organisers cotton on that he is not popular with the punters and then he wont get any bookings, which is not really a good situation for him.

[Cuban8]

Posted by Tom Sharp 2 on 26/06/2017 01:15:02:

Not all is in decline.

Glastonbury Festival 2017.

Entrance limited to 135K people, for security reasons, tickets £238 sold out in one hour 40 minutes, fully paid for by 1st April.

Not forgetting full size airshows e.g. Duxford & Old Warden along with many others that still get large crowds (myself included) despite not being anywhere near a cheap day out anymore. They've reinvented themselves to cater for the change in audiences. A far cry from airshows in the 1960s & 70s where essentially you were shepherded onto a muddy field with not much else to do but hang around and wait for the flying - what else for a couple of quid or a fiver though? (Farnborough and RAF 'at home'  days excepted).

I'm waiting for the Nats, fingers crossed for good weather - one of the few aeromodelling weekends away that's worth the travelling and (reasonable) cost. Modelair at OW as well.

Edited By Cuban8 on 26/06/2017 10:59:54

[Bob Burton]

I went yesterday and was frankly disappointed. As has been the case for some time the models being displayed are getting further and further from my reach financially and whilst the jets in particular are very impressive, once you have seen one display you have basically seen all of them. Fast passes left and right, a slow roll or two, some loops and a bit of knife edge and that's it. Oh, and some smoke.

The Reds duo, which is one thing that I was looking forward to, were landing as I arrived in the morning and did not fly again, apparently due to some technical difficulties which also seemed to afflict some other display models. The commentator mentioned that they had been "let down by some potential pilots" but that the problem had been "solved for next year" but the solution was not revealed.

The takeoffs and landings by the Gnats inevitably interrupted the model flying but added little or nothing to the show. I doubt that I will be attending again. I am looking forward to the Nats which has the advantage of being able to see disciplines that I would not normally see as well as having a display flightline for the big/expensive stuff.

Personally I would have liked to see an area set aside for multirotor flying and possibly racing as at the Nats. Perhaps the organisers could consider including this growing are of interest in future shows.

[Stuart Z]

Just my thoughts, the music was too loud where I was sat at the far right of the flight line so the maybe less than accurate commentary, I noticed the odd error, was quite hard to hear at times. It was in no way as good as watching Hanno Prettner performing to Pink Floyd! Seemed more like music for music' s sake. Just my thoughts, not expecting everyone to agree.

[Tim Flyer]

I went again this year. To be honest it was mainly just for the shopping and I certainly did a lot. It's great to see some of the models face up rather than just on the net. I liked the YT international shop with very impressive Warbirds.

Yes the prices may be the same as the web but it saves all the postage hassle and delays and it's good to have a look at what I'm buying . I also loaded up on fuel too and bought a Wot4xl to use as a tug. The long central avenue design of the show makes it a bit stretched out in my opinion. It would be great if they could group everything a bit closer to create more of a Village type atmosphere. I did bump into quite a few club mates though...I was looking out for Jon but didn't see him. In terms of music I'm happy if it's missed out, as I prefer to hear the sound of planes at shows. That's a part of a model too me.

[Jon H]

Posted by Bob Burton on 26/06/2017 11:15:36:

I went yesterday and was frankly disappointed. As has been the case for some time the models being displayed are getting further and further from my reach financially and whilst the jets in particular are very impressive, once you have seen one display you have basically seen all of them. Fast passes left and right, a slow roll or two, some loops and a bit of knife edge and that's it. Oh, and some smoke.

The Reds duo, which is one thing that I was looking forward to, were landing as I arrived in the morning and did not fly again, apparently due to some technical difficulties which also seemed to afflict some other display models. The commentator mentioned that they had been "let down by some potential pilots" but that the problem had been "solved for next year" but the solution was not revealed.

The takeoffs and landings by the Gnats inevitably interrupted the model flying but added little or nothing to the show. I doubt that I will be attending again. I am looking forward to the Nats which has the advantage of being able to see disciplines that I would not normally see as well as having a display flightline for the big/expensive stuff.

Personally I would have liked to see an area set aside for multirotor flying and possibly racing as at the Nats. Perhaps the organisers could consider including this growing are of interest in future shows.

The proliferation of jets...most of which were the same was raised on the Saturday evening and i think its going to be addressed next year. The Reds put on an excellent display on saturday morning but were then struck down by technical/safety issues so could not fly. The Tiger team slot of Tiger moths etc were thwarted by the wind which is why we had to throw in the towel on that slot and fly something else.

I do absolutely agree that attainable models need to be flown and displayed but the issue is that people will not pay to watch an acrowot fly about so there needs to be some way of bringing in those affordable club models without loosing the interest of the crowd.

If anyone has ideas how this could be done then speak up as i do think its important and would say that 80'' span aerobatic/scale models are really the top end of the club scene.

So, how can we make it work?

[Jon H]

And yes, the music was really irritating

[ChrisB]

Re. LMA commentary the chap who does it is Dave Walker. He's an LMA member and does it voluntarily and he knows his stuff! By their very nature most models are scale of one sort or another including lots of scale jets such as VC 10, Vulcan etc. Again by their nature they are flown in a scale manner, so non of the fast pass, reversal and back again stuff which seems to be the trend. There are also warbirds, multi engines and large..scale..aerobatics, civilian and the occasional helicopter. If you've never been to Cosford its worth a visit.

[Nightflyer]

One for Jon Harper here. I think you are right about the need to look at the constructive feedback for helping improve things going forward. For me WnW is my local show for some years now and so as a local like to see it successful.

It might help to look at some of the formats used previously, and one of the key things would be to make it more family orientated, as if all or most of the family are entertained it brings people through the gates.

Talking about the 'Acro Wot' flying. If a show something akin to the old Sandown Symposiums are concerned then encouraging trade and variety of trade helps. I am not sure how much the weather contributed to this year's flying programme but the wind was tricky on Saturday (and hats off with how well the pilots coped) especially when airspace is tightly controlled at North Weald. A healthy mix of jets, large, helicopters, drones?, average and even 'fun' models are always entertaining.

It is never easy organising a show (even from personal experience in the past) you can never please everyone all of the time but a few things can make it easy to please most of the people most of the time. I am sure things can improve and I think despite everything we should all acknowledge the hard work of all those involved in making the event happen, which often is forgotten.

[Jon H]

Posted by Nightflyer 2013 on 26/06/2017 13:32:17:

One for Jon Harper here. I think you are right about the need to look at the constructive feedback for helping improve things going forward. For me WnW is my local show for some years now and so as a local like to see it successful.

It might help to look at some of the formats used previously, and one of the key things would be to make it more family orientated, as if all or most of the family are entertained it brings people through the gates.

Talking about the 'Acro Wot' flying. If a show something akin to the old Sandown Symposiums are concerned then encouraging trade and variety of trade helps. I am not sure how much the weather contributed to this year's flying programme but the wind was tricky on Saturday (and hats off with how well the pilots coped) especially when airspace is tightly controlled at North Weald. A healthy mix of jets, large, helicopters, drones?, average and even 'fun' models are always entertaining.

It is never easy organising a show (even from personal experience in the past) you can never please everyone all of the time but a few things can make it easy to please most of the people most of the time. I am sure things can improve and I think despite everything we should all acknowledge the hard work of all those involved in making the event happen, which often is forgotten.

The wind was tricky but in all honesty it probably only changed one slot (Tiger Team) if my understanding of the show was accurate.

That said, many slots had different models from those on the flying list due to technical issues with models or pilots not wanting to fly a model due to the conditions. but even with the changes these still fell within the scope of the original slot.

I was only supposed to fly 4 slots all weekend but i think i flew 3 on saturday and 4 on sunday, all of which were flown with a model that was not even scheduled to fly in any slot all weekend. Myself and a number of other pilots did this quite often to make sure slots were filled to the best of our ability and to put on a show. This did on occasion mean jets followed jets which i know what not ideal but better than no flying at all. 

 

Regarding Sandown, i think that is what W+W are trying to get back towards but its not going to be an overnight change.

Edited By Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 26/06/2017 14:01:11

[The Wright Stuff]

I have to admit, I was disappointed last year, and so made a conscious decision not to go this year. It sounds like I made the right choice...

[Jon H]

Posted by The Wright Stuff on 26/06/2017 14:15:34:

I have to admit, I was disappointed last year, and so made a conscious decision not to go this year. It sounds like I made the right choice...

Not if you want the show to improve.

Without feedback nothing will change and without attendance the show cannot survive. I understand that you were disappointed, but to be fair posts like this arent very helpful if we want to make things better.

So what exactly was disappointing and how do you propose it is fixed?

[The Wright Stuff]

Hi Jon,

You are absolutely right. I didn't elaborate because I thought I had already fed back my comments from last year at the time, but since you ask, I will try to be as constructive as I can.

To be clear, I tend to limit myself to one, possibly two shows a year, so it's a choice between shows for me. So W&W's loss is another show's gain.

My disappointment last year was very simply the lack of diversity of the models. Whether or not that is the show organiser's fault is a moot point from most visitor's point of view. I can't really comment on how to improve the show from that perspective because I don't have the details about the reasons, but presumably either:

a) The owners/pilots/clubs of these models were not invited.
b) The owners/pilots/clubs of these models were invited but didn't attend.
c) The diversity of the models out there available for display is simply lower than it used to be.

Where were the Mosquitos? Lancasters? B17s? Catalinas? Sunderlands? Hampdens? A10s? And a dozen other big multi-engined models that used to frequent all the shows 10 or 20 years ago? The general availablity of these types of models has declined at all the shows to some extent, but it seems to be worse at W&Ws than some of the other shows.

It just seems to be that other shows have their area of speciality. The LMA jobs have big scale models. Weston Park has pyrotechnics and fireworks. Old Warden has an atmosphere of its own and a museum, and the Nationals has the competitive element, as well as huge diversity. W&W doesn't really have any of those claims to fame, so it only puts more emphasis on a diversity of models, and a diversity of flight schedules. And like others have said, when everything is so similar, you've basically 'seen it all' by 10am.

I hope this is constructive in the sense of it being detailed, even if it doesn't offer a solution.

Edited By The Wright Stuff on 26/06/2017 15:33:05

[Stuart Z]

Jon

Exactly the point. Feedback is essential but in a constructive way to help get shows the way most people want them.

Of course there will always be those that still aren't happy with it but possibly hearing from everyone will get the highest approval level. As I said earlier, the music was my bug- bear as I couldn't always hear the commentary. As for the commentary, they take practise - I just loved Murray Walker when things got hectic!

[The Wright Stuff]

Yes, I haven't heard the new commentator, but you are right, it's a delicate balance between entertainment and information. To me, DB Sound was exciting to listen to in his heyday, although it got stale after you'd heard it a few times.

It seemed that he was actually interactive with the pilots, part of the show, and not just commentating on what he could see. I recall the routine where one wheel wouldn't come down, and anticipating a crash landing, he would really liven the whole crowd up. Of course, it was blatantly on independent channels, so the second wheel came down eventually, but not before the whole crowd was on its feet, all the while he was shouting 'you can go lower than that'...

...but again, naff or not, it was an extra dimension that is since lacking...

[John Tee]

Re the lack of traders, The area around the boating pool and trucking area was very depleted this year. This area has in the past been at the "cheaper " end of used model and equipment. This year it wasn't worth the long walk up the flightline to see what was there -not much. There were none of the usual outdoor clothing type stands. Even the Daleks didn't go marauding as far as I could see, and only one tank moving about. Other years there have been simulators of various types but not this year. Ther wasn't much on the BMFA stand (where was their simulator trailer?) and two of the models on display, one of which I was going to buy have been discontinued so why display them. I went mainly for the trade and bring and buy and did get what I wanted so happy enough but already thinking I may give it a miss next year. Usually make a weekend of it so stay in a local Premier inn which in some ways was better value than the show.

John

[Jon H]

Thanks for the clarification Wright Stuff that is much better and I agree with you but i too do not know the answers to all of your questions.

From the discussions had on the day i know the LMA shows have most of what has been discussed here in terms of aircraft but for some reason they do not seem to fly at WW any more. If anyone has LMA contacts it would be interesting to learn why that is.

Wings and wheels is the only show i do and money is the simple reason. Even though i am there supporting Laser i dont get paid and do not get my expenses covered so i am in effect giving up a weekend with little benefit for myself personally. Model Technics often 'sponsor' me with a gallon of fuel which is greatly appreciated but that is all i get.

I do not know the situation for other pilots, but i believe most are there for love and not for money which will always limit the number of shows that pilots can attend and always make them cautious when it comes to flying in a nasty crosswind.

[Stevo]

Mr Harper.. let me hear you all say "aaahhhhhh "...

Poor lad. I'll stand you a pint if you are at the Southern Model show. Does that make you feel better?

John Tee - Yep at the end of the flightline was a the cheap traders, the cheap tool stand where I get all sorts of cheap clamps etc but there was nothing up that end worth visiting at all.

I remember DB Sound.. A long protracted story about the pilot who had a wonderful dog. A lot of explanation followed regards te breed, age and its relationship Closely followed by a quick line about the dog getting runover and killed the previous weekend. This was more like "Our Tune"...

Shall I draft a letter to WnW and run it past a couple on here? Volunteers?