Kittyhawk ruined?

[ted hughes]

The Kitty hawk has been ruined- and we paid a Spitfire for it, too:**LINK**

[Callsign Tarnish]

Typical Daily Mail reporting.

[The Wright Stuff]

"And anyway, I am sure there are a few artefacts in the British Museum that they would like back."

I would say that's a fair point!

[Cuban8]

Seems to me that most newspapers are pretty hopeless when it comes to any aviation coverage, since AFAIA, they don't have specialist aviation correspondents as in years past. The criticism reported of the 'restoration' comes from the editor of Britain at War Magazine which is published by the group that produces 'Fly Past', so if they are unhappy with what's happened, then there's clearly a problem.

[Don Fry]

Seems to me a better story is how in the course of negotiations a Spitfire was gifted, with no recovery option if the negotiations failed.

Don't shout at me if I have the wrong end of the stick. My information source is the Mail.

Edited By Don Fry on 04/01/2018 10:50:34

[Cuban8]

Quite a bit of coverage on this debacle, looks like the Spit is still in the UK and being hangared by Kennet Aviation at North Weald.

**LINK**

[ted hughes]

I think the restoration is an absolute tragedy. A plane found in a time capsule 70 years after it was lost has been patched and repainted in a garish way to represent a generic Kittyhawk.

I don't suppose it can be used as an historical reference now.

I'm pleased we still have the Spit, if Cuban8 is right.

[PatMc]

Compared to what we've done to Egyptian artefacts of much greater historical importance I don't see that we have anything to complain about.

[Cuban8]

Some video of the crash site and of the machine's state of preservation. The human tragedy is that of Sergeant Pilot Copping - and looking at the area of the crash in the video, one can only wonder at how he must have felt to find himself alone in such an inhospitable place. Sadly, his remains appear to be somewhere in the locality, possibly within twenty miles, and one can only imagine the distress of his family who never knew of his fate.

[ted hughes]

Posted by PatMc on 04/01/2018 12:34:35:

Compared to what we've done to Egyptian artefacts of much greater historical importance I don't see that we have anything to complain about.

But we have everything to complain about.

History should teach us:that was then, hopefully we do things differently now.

If we can't learn from history, it is a very poor situation.

The Kittyhawk was one of the most complete, primary resource, artefact, discovered from WW11.

Now it has been destroyed by morons.

[KiwiKid]

I think their heart was in the right place, but she is a bit of a rivet counter's nightmare (that spinner!):

and the paint scheme is a bit of a howler. I think they were trying to go for the period scheme: **LINK**

but a bit of a swing and a miss there too.

[PatMc]

Posted by ted hughes on 04/01/2018 13:17:32:

Posted by PatMc on 04/01/2018 12:34:35:

Compared to what we've done to Egyptian artefacts of much greater historical importance I don't see that we have anything to complain about.

But we have everything to complain about.

History should teach us:that was then, hopefully we do things differently now.

If we can't learn from history, it is a very poor situation.

The Kittyhawk was one of the most complete, primary resource, artefact, discovered from WW11.

Now it has been destroyed by morons.

That's jingoistic nonsense. The aircraft in question is simply an example of a particular weapon of war that's been well documented. The real tragedy is that search for Sergeant Copping's remains was badly mishandled.

Instead of offering a Spitfire perhaps we should have offered to return some of the many ancient Egyptian artefacts that we still hold in museums & private collections.

[ted hughes]

Posted by PatMc on 04/01/2018 14:33:20:

Posted by ted hughes on 04/01/2018 13:17:32:

Posted by PatMc on 04/01/2018 12:34:35:

Compared to what we've done to Egyptian artefacts of much greater historical importance I don't see that we have anything to complain about.

But we have everything to complain about.

History should teach us:that was then, hopefully we do things differently now.

If we can't learn from history, it is a very poor situation.

The Kittyhawk was one of the most complete, primary resource, artefact, discovered from WW11.

Now it has been destroyed by morons.

That's jingoistic nonsense. The aircraft in question is simply an example of a particular weapon of war that's been well documented. The real tragedy is that search for Sergeant Copping's remains was badly mishandled.

Instead of offering a Spitfire perhaps we should have offered to return some of the many ancient Egyptian artefacts that we still hold in museums & private collections.

Sort of tit for tat, you think?

We destroyed your things in the past,so you can now destroy ours? Okay......

[PatMc]

Posted by ted hughes on 04/01/2018 16:13:02:

Posted by PatMc on 04/01/2018 14:33:20:

Posted by ted hughes on 04/01/2018 13:17:32:

Posted by PatMc on 04/01/2018 12:34:35:

Compared to what we've done to Egyptian artefacts of much greater historical importance I don't see that we have anything to complain about.

But we have everything to complain about.

History should teach us:that was then, hopefully we do things differently now.

If we can't learn from history, it is a very poor situation.

The Kittyhawk was one of the most complete, primary resource, artefact, discovered from WW11.

Now it has been destroyed by morons.

That's jingoistic nonsense. The aircraft in question is simply an example of a particular weapon of war that's been well documented. The real tragedy is that search for Sergeant Copping's remains was badly mishandled.

Instead of offering a Spitfire perhaps we should have offered to return some of the many ancient Egyptian artefacts that we still hold in museums & private collections.

Sort of tit for tat, you think?

We destroyed your things in the past,so you can now destroy ours? Okay......

I haven't mentioned anyone destroying anything.

The aircraft is not a rarity or of any particular historical importance. If it had been I daresay we might have offered something of importance that we had stolen in the past from Egypt.
As it stands the Egyptian authorities have merely kept something that belongs to them & restored it to the standard they have decided on. They could just as easily removed all ordnance then left it for the locals to salvage the scrap metal. Given the political upheaval that has been taking place in Egypt since Mubarak was forced to resign it's surprising that any restoration work was carried out at all.

[McG 6969]

I'm not British, not Egyptian either, but I tend to agree with PatMC's argumentation.

It was (is) on Egyptian territory after all and quite sure they could have done a better job of the restoration but then "it isn't of any historical importance".

My thoughts are more directed to the nightmare that Sergeant Copping has been going through. Let the Great Flyer up there take care of his soul.

Chris

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

We've lots tucked away in museums all over the place as have many Countries, arguments for and against it, lot of things would still be buried under tons of sand and no one would see nor learn about it. I blame Indiana n Lara myself. Aeroplane ? no biggie.

[Stephen Smith 14]

I like it

[Don Fry]

I have to agree with PatMc. The people of Great Briton have a fairly unique view of the past.

I am not saying a right or wrong view.

And I am trying to apply mind bleach to my thoughts of what that poor pilot went through.

Edited By Don Fry on 04/01/2018 19:14:33

[Don Fry]

And having suffered from a fair few "what am I looking at" moments with camouflaged aircraft, a scale P40 of that one at least will be flyable in winter.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

The people of Great Britain will never get a say in repatriating the likes of the Elgin Marbles, when we getting our Druids back from the Romans ? Romans ? what did they ever do for us.

[Colin Leighfield]

We might not like the paint scheme and not approve of the quality of the repair work, but it’s got a much better chance of surviving now than it did from remaining indefinitely in the desert. Also far more people will now get to know about poor Copping than otherwise might have. Not an ideal resolution for many of us but it could have been far worse.

[Dave Bran]

Expect an ARTF to follow...............................after all, if a real one is finished like that they MUST have been real.

I'm with PatMc.

I worked for some time in a Museum recreating the 1920-1930 period. A "new" period correct Fire Station was to be built, so plans were submitted to council but rejected until a pitch roof was added " because people looking down on it would be upset".

EVERY station of that size and period in that county was flat roofed.

ONE farmhouse could be said to overlook the site (if trees were cut down to gain view).

Sanity never prevailed and it was built with pitched roof, so now all visitors likely think they had pitched roofs.

I know of someone who destroyed the original exquisitely patterned and lettered cut and etched glass on a vehicle awaiting rebuild to be able to claim it was a London bus rather than a Brighton one, worth more you see!! Nice resto, totally inaccurate.

Does it matter? I say yes, but in the case of that plane, its not ours, or in our country, and we have SO many cases of self sown idiocy here when it comes to preservation/historical accuracy I do not feel we have ANY right to comment so aggressively!

I emitted a quiet "tut tut" (not Tutt) and wandered off.....it's always best.

[ted hughes]

Posted by john stones 1 on 04/01/2018 19:21:30:

The people of Great Britain will never get a say in repatriating the likes of the Elgin Marbles, when we getting our Druids back from the Romans ? Romans ? what did they ever do for us.

The reason why we got the Elgin marbles from Greece and the Needle from Egypt was because we were civilized and were beginning to understand art and history. Earlier societies did not care, such as the English destroying Hadrian's Wall to build cattle sheds. We took these items to preserve them.

Primary sources are precious.

History is not important to most people, it seems.

[Tom Thomas]

you cannot say that history is not important to "most people" based on this story.

History and its relics are much like art, each piece means so much to so many, but in infinite ways.

Comment on this recovered aircraft and the poor chap that lost his life in such an awful and lonely way, but don't cheapen his or the aircrafts memory with petty snipes at history's lost and found.

[Nev]

Attitudes to restoration change over time, along with the skill of the restores. I think if you look in some of our smaller museums you will find planes on show that have been restored to a similar standard. Doesn’t mean I don’t like to see them.

I can remember as a kid, our only flying spitfire in private hands was painted bright blue, I don’t think he was allowed to paint it in camouflage colours.