Martin Harris - Moderator Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 One other point is that the certifications remain valid but are only documented on current membership cards - as there is a mechanism to revoke certificates, then an old membership card or pass certificate is no proof that the achievement scheme rating is still valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Posted by Martin Harris on 17/06/2018 11:24:41: One other point is that the certifications remain valid but are only documented on current membership cards - as there is a mechanism to revoke certificates, then an old membership card or pass certificate is no proof that the achievement scheme rating is still valid. They're documented with the BMFA, how else did they credit me with a B cert after 20+ years out of the hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 The point I was trying to make is that an old A etc. is not necessarily of any value unless you're a current member of the BMFA. Producing a 1985 B certificate may not satisfy the legal requirements to qualify for the exemption. Of course your LMA membership is an alternative Percy, but others might not be in the same position... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Rose Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 BEB... Please keep your answers to the arguments and do not attempt to talk down to those who give opinions you may not agree with. 😉 First, you are the one who introduced the requirement of an A certificate into this thread. Of course you do not impose it , but you advocated its imposition. Secondly, see SteveJ,s reply top of page 21, where he quotes the "explanatory memorandum" saying about the CAA wanting an online test of the sua laws. I see nowhere( in the BMFA informations or the explanatory memorandum) that an A certificate is being considered or required. That idea seems to be your brainchild. As someone else has mentioned there may be problems in implementing an online test satisfactorily.,Nevertheless, if it can be achieved, and thus BMFA membership and passing of the test satisfies the CAA and the law, why press for more , especially a test that many will avoid and yet will probably go on flying ( illegally) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I'm not talking down to you, I'm just trying to explain my position.You seem to have little understanding of what is possible with CAA and are not interested in exploring that! So there is not much point in discussing it with you.As I said to Gonzo over the 400ft rule - we'll see.BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Muir Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 For what it's worth, here's how I see it: I don't think the CAA is interested in how well we can fly, I think they want to be sure we know the rules as they apply to us. For BMFA/SAA members that means reading, digesting and, above all, following the guidelines as set out in our handbooks. These organizations may, I suggest, need to come up with an on-line test for us all to take which will prove that we have read and understood these guidelines, as simply being a member may not be enough to satisfy the CAA. Having completed the theory part of the A test (or equivalent) might be accepted as a substitute, the flying part of the test I'd expect to be irrelevant and getting everyone, including country members, through it, would be completely impractical anyway. For non members similar logic would apply but a CAA set online test would be taken which would reflect the rules that apply to them, including the 400ft limit and so on. How the casual drone purchaser is informed and persuaded of the need to do this will be somebody else's problem. Whichever group we're in, the essential purpose of the test will be to show we know the rules and doing an on-line test ensures, at least as much as is practical, that we have read enough of them to fill out the test form. It does look like if we want to continue to fly legally, we're going to have to provide some kind of proof that we understand our legal obligations, and that means some sort of test, but I don't see the A test becoming mandatory any time soon, or ever, come to that. I'd just like to add my thanks to our representative bodies for the excellent work done so far, John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 The outbreak of joy didn't last long then. Online test..how can that work ? has me baffled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I chatted to Andy at the BMFA tent at Weston yesterday. He was explaining that its business as usual. Therefore why continue to be upset. Just carry on as is, stay safe, follow the current regs, don't annoy anyone and all will be well. Be happy that the powers that be are happy with us, because if they weren't we'd know about it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Agreed! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Posted by Steve J on 17/06/2018 19:31:57: Posted by john stones 1 on 17/06/2018 18:45:17: Online test..how can that work ? Like the BMFA achievement scheme quizzes with authentication to link the person doing it to an address and registration number. It's not rocket science. The Germans are already have such a test (Google "DMFV Kenntnisnachweis" ) and the French will have later in the summer. Steve Edited By Steve J on 17/06/2018 19:32:40 Yep you can check an email address, but it don't prove who answered it, not rocket science is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I can foresee some wailing and gnashing of teeth if the CAA match the 25 Euros + VAT that the Germans are being asked for! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Rose Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 17/06/2018 16:53:54: I'm not talking down to you, So there is not much point in discussing it with you. BEB LOL.- unbelievable! Let's leave it at that then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Rose Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 ExactlyPosted by John Muir on 17/06/2018 18:04:57: For what it's worth, here's how I see it: I don't think the CAA is interested in how well we can fly, I think they want to be sure we know the rules as they apply to us. For BMFA/SAA members that means reading, digesting and, above all, following the guidelines as set out in our handbooks. These organizations may, I suggest, need to come up with an on-line test for us all to take which will prove that we have read and understood these guidelines, as simply being a member may not be enough to satisfy the CAA. Having completed the theory part of the A test (or equivalent) might be accepted as a substitute, the flying part of the test I'd expect to be irrelevant and getting everyone, including country members, through it, would be completely impractical anyway. For non members similar logic would apply but a CAA set online test would be taken which would reflect the rules that apply to them, including the 400ft limit and so on. How the casual drone purchaser is informed and persuaded of the need to do this will be somebody else's problem. Whichever group we're in, the essential purpose of the test will be to show we know the rules and doing an on-line test ensures, at least as much as is practical, that we have read enough of them to fill out the test form. It does look like if we want to continue to fly legally, we're going to have to provide some kind of proof that we understand our legal obligations, and that means some sort of test, but I don't see the A test becoming mandatory any time soon, or ever, come to that. I'd just like to add my thanks to our representative bodies for the excellent work done so far, John. Exactly right. Well said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymaz Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 Posted by Martin Harris on 17/06/2018 23:15:37: I can foresee some wailing and gnashing of teeth if the CAA match the 25 Euros + VAT that the Germans are being asked for! And it’s only valid for 5 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 Posted by john stones 1 on 17/06/2018 21:14:15: Posted by Steve J on 17/06/2018 19:31:57: Posted by john stones 1 on 17/06/2018 18:45:17: Online test..how can that work ? Like the BMFA achievement scheme quizzes with authentication to link the person doing it to an address and registration number. It's not rocket science. The Germans are already have such a test (Google "DMFV Kenntnisnachweis" ) and the French will have later in the summer. Steve Yep you can check an email address, but it don't prove who answered it, not rocket science is it. There's a continuum available to the authorities here. They could allow physical tests to be sat in clubs or 3rd party examination sites and marked by a trained examiner (resource intensive and open to abuse if marked by a fellow member); they could allow people to take an open book online exam from whoever they like (easier to administer, but difficult to validate identity of candidate) or they could require an online test be taken only at 3rd party examination sites where ID is validated (less vulnerable to fraud, but higher cost and more inconvenient to candidates). I doubt they will worried be by a small minority cheating tbh; this test will primarily be there to assist with the process of enforcement if something goes wrong (i.e. it's another "irresponsible act" if someone who's flown outside the new regs stands up in court and hasn't passed the test). I would therefore expect they will go with option 2 or a variant thereof. Given the exemption to the 400ft rule appears to have been given to all members of the 4 associations (including those who do not operate inside a club framework) I would not expect we will be offered an exemption to this aspect of the new regs. Perhaps affiliated club members will get an exemption because they are in a position to receive training but country members won't? We will have to wait and see. Edited By MattyB on 18/06/2018 03:26:03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 Posted by cymaz on 18/06/2018 00:01:37: Posted by Martin Harris on 17/06/2018 23:15:37: I can foresee some wailing and gnashing of teeth if the CAA match the 25 Euros + VAT that the Germans are being asked for! And it’s only valid for 5 years Given the regs are almost certain to change again in the next 5 years with U-space proposals from EASA and their partners I would expect any test we take would only last that long at maximum. Not a major issue if it's cheap and quick, much more of one if it isn't. PS - I can see lots of slopers thumbing their nose at testing because they know the chances of enforcement are essentially zero in the remote locations they fly and they don't operate in a club environment where it would be checked. Of course the authorities could make having a validated test cert a requirement to join one of the MFAs similar to the insurance check they do when you pay VED each year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piers Bowlan Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 I believe that we will find that registration and the online test will transpire to be something that will be innocuous and take only minutes to complete. As Matty says, they are not interested in whether you cheat, only that you fill in an online form where you claim that you know the rules. Hopefully you will and stick to them too, but if you don't it will be used as a stick to beat you with in court - if you are caught! It is all about the CAA complying with the EASA requirement that there is testing. They are not interested in your competence to fly, just that you know the rules and fly where appropriate so that you don't conflict with other airspace users. The CAA have stated that they are happy with the current model club modus operandi. I think that a CAA regulated 'A Cert' is just pie in the sky. Sorry BEB! On another tack, I have just moved house to the wilds of Dorset. Recently, I observed first a Chinook skimming the trees down in the valley where I live and then a SAR helicopter being operated well below the tops of the Purbeck hills. All very impressive stuff . I wasn't flying my glider as I am still unpacking boxes but had I been, there wouldn't have been a conflict as they were flying well below the height I usually fly! I just hope the pilots in question know their drone code . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 what about a similar idea to the software agreements we have to tick box on PC's.as well as been a member of the(BMFA) we also have to agree to abide by all the current ANO'S and rules and regs in force......that way there will be a record of you saying you know what you can and cant do...our club has a licence with the local council and we have to abide by all the current rules and regs-if we don't, we lose our licence from them and our site...….I don't think that whatever they bring in will be too complicated to admin......bearing in mind these cash strapped times we live in...…… my idea's anyway for what they are worth... ken anderson...ne...1....idea's dept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Elam Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 Posted by Steve J on 18/06/2018 07:27:33: Posted by MattyB on 18/06/2018 03:23:42: I can see lots of slopers thumbing their nose at testing because they know the chances of enforcement are essentially zero in the remote locations they fly and they don't operate in a club environment where it would be checked. It would be their decision, but violating the ANO means no insurance. Steve But of course many of the lone slope fliers do not have any insurance anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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