Dambusters Raid

[Jon H]

Found this and thought it very interesting.

[Former Member]

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[J D 8]

Also have an interest in what was the first precision bombing raid.

In the 60's plastic model maker Revill brought  their 1/72nd Dambuster Lancaster out when the Upkeep bomb came off the secret list. I made one and the bomb was nothing like the one's in Dambuster film as when the film was made in the 50's they just had to guess what it looked like.

Director Michael Anderson went to a lot of trouble to find actors and extras that looked like those they portray in the film.

Edited By J D 8 on 13/06/2019 10:08:56

[Former Member]

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[J D 8]

The upkeep bomb did look like an oil drum.

At my local airfield there is on display an inert Highball bomb. A smaller version of upkeep that was for use against anchored ships but never used in combat.

The local example was dropped from a Mosquito at tests done on a disused railway line to see if tunnels could be targeted. Some did go down the tunnel and there are impressive chunks taken out of the brickwork as the bomb slammed along.

The recovered one was a miss that was found in a field nearby.

[Former Member]

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[Former Member]

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[Former Member]

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[J D 8]

The Germans may have had the dams repaired pretty quick but there was not much water in them until the winter. Also some 10000 workers were diverted from building Hitlers Atlantic wall as well as many thousands of soldiers and guns sent to protect the dams from another low level attack.

Later in the war 617 attacked the Sorpe dam again using 12000 lb Tallboy ground penetrating [earthquake ] bombs but still it held. Construction was different as it was an earth bank with a central concrete core. Repairs needed were minor.

In the 50's during further repairs an unexploded Tallboy was found and a large area was evacuated. It was defused by two brave bomb disposal officers, one German one British.

[Former Member]

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[thomas oliver 1]

Not much seems to be recorded about the history of 617 Sq. after the Dams raid. I may have touched on this before but it will bear repeating. ( My memory is not so hot now) Just before the end of the war with Japan, 617 Sq. were sent out to Salbani in West Bengal India, where I was stationed working on Liberator bombers on 159 Sq. The intention was for 617 to support the American B29 Squadrons in bombing Japan from Okinawa. As an engine fitter I had had previous experience on Merlin engines so I was moved onto 617 Sq. Up to the dropping of the atom bomb the aircraft were mainly involved in navigational practice around northern India and bombing practice. The interesting thing was that the aircraft were painted white on top and black underneath, not camouflaged.. They were also accompanied by 9 Sq. My information is that the City of Lincoln aircraft of the BBMF was originally a spare aircraft of 9 Sq, which was never sent out to India. I once saw on television a shot of aircraft WVS actually on a raid over Germany. I flew around India in this aircraft and have one photo showing it at Poona near Bombay. T.Oliver.

[Cliff Bastow]

There is also a bouncing bomb at Newark Air museum, It is very like an oil drum in shape. I believe the first ones were clad with wood but this was found to be unnecessary during testing.

If you get chance to visit the BBMF visitor centre at RAF Conningsby there is a tallboy and a Grand slam on display.

Big to say the least. The grand slam is still the largest non nuclear weapon as far as I am aware.

There was a program on sky last year about what 617 did after the dams raid including the sinking of the Turpitz.

[Cliff Bastow]

Many years ago I was stationed at Conningsby and on one occasion I was lucky enough to get a flight in the BBMF Lancaster, yes that is me you can see in the mid upper turret!

Also along for the ride was Robert Todd who played Guy Gibson in the Dambusters movie.

He told us some interesting stories about the making of the film.

[Daithi O Buitigh]

Posted by J D 8 on 13/06/2019 10:08:09:

Also have an interest in what was the first precision bombing raid.

In the 60's plastic model maker Revill brought their 1/72nd Dambuster Lancaster out when the Upkeep bomb came off the secret list. I made one and the bomb was nothing like the one's in Dambuster film as when the film was made in the 50's they just had to guess what it looked like.

Director Michael Anderson went to a lot of trouble to find actors and extras that looked like those they portray in the film.

Edited By J D 8 on 13/06/2019 10:08:56

Actually they weren't allowed to guess what it looked like - when the film was made the bomb was still on the secret list so Air Ministry bods were hovering around to make certain that it looked nothing like the real thing.

Even the newsreel clip of the tests had the bomb blotted out by the censor - what looks like a bouncing ball was a painted spot on the film.

Then there was the Grand Slam parked for years at the gate of RAFScampton - when they went to move it for road works, it seemed heavier than it should have been. On checking they found it was still full of torpex

Edited By Daithi O Buitigh on 13/06/2019 23:30:56

[Former Member]

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[zz]

THE DAMBUSTER RAID by John Sweetman, Arms and Armour, 1982, appears to be a good book on the subject. Covers everything from theory, development, training, attack and more . May have been over shadowed by later works, it still looks good.

AUSTRALIA'S DAMBUSTERS, Colin Burgess, 2003, also a good read, but probably of little interest to those in the UK.

[trevor wood 2]

Interesting radio series by the Australian Broadcasting Company from 65 years ago telling the story of the Dambusters raid, and what 617sqn did next. Much better than listening to Radio 4's 'Book at Bedtime'

**LINK**

[Former Member]

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[Daithi O Buitigh]

The Australian radio documentary wasa 26 part dramatisation of the original 'Dam Busters' book by Paul Brickhill (I read both that and Gibson's 'Enemy Coast Ahead' while I was still at school)who did receive some assistance from the Air Ministry in research and it did cover a lot of events post the original raids - the Bielefeld Viaduct, the U-boat pens, the Tirpitz (the Navy claimed it wasn't sunk because, although the bottom was blown off and it was resting upright on the sea bed, the decks were still above water).

They were posted to the Far East but the Japanese surrendered first (a comment quoted in Brickhill's book was "They must have heard we were coming"

[Cliff Bastow]

Posted by Tom Sharp 2 on 14/06/2019 01:05:17:

 

Was Robert Todd the brother of Richard Todd?

 

Yes sorry bit of a senior moment there! I meant Richard .

 

Edited By Cliff Bastow on 14/06/2019 17:15:23

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by thomas oliver 1 on 13/06/2019 20:35:57:

Not much seems to be recorded about the history of 617 Sq. after the Dams raid.

Although it probably wouldn't be considered a heavyweight historical record, my copy of Paul Brickhill's The Dam Busters (Pan Books paperback) devotes about 150 of its 250 odd pages to 617's post Chastise operations

[Martin McIntosh]

Martin H, you beat me to it. This is a fascinating book and, as you say, devotes most of the text to what they did after the dams raid. Obviously a lot of it is guessed at since this did not become declassified until 1993 (50 years after). Lots about a new type of bomb sight which could not be named at the time but I would think that it was the Sperry bomb sight computer to enable accurate dropping of the Tallboys and Grand Slams.

I visited the Mohne and Eder dams in 1975 when I went to Switzerland to spectate at the F3A world champs, spending the next week in Germany. You could just about make out where the repairs were made. They are a major tourist attraction. I do not speak German but the captions to the photos of Guy Gibson there were obviously none too complimentary.

Jon, I have lent my copy of Paul Brickhill`s `The Dambusters` to Sid in our club but if you ask I am sure that he would let you have it.

[J D 8]

The bombsite use by 617 squadron was similar but more sophisticated than the Sperry. It was called the SABS, Stabilizing Automatic Bomb Site. It took in information supplied from most of the crew to the bomb aimer.

Only 617 operated it as it took a lot of practice and skill to get results. Another problem was the aircraft had to have a ten mile straight and level run to the target, not nice when someone is shooting at you.

With allied local air superiority, to get all aircraft over the target in as short a time as possible 617 would circle the target like Indians around a waggon train and at a given signal all head for the target. Aircraft would fly at different levels and a slight time delay so as not to collide and hopefully not drop bombs on one another.

[Martin McIntosh]

I mistakenly thought that SABS meant Sperry Automatic Bomb Sight. When I was a kid (still am at heart) you could buy all sorts of things like these as war surplus. Full of motors and gears.