Why RC? Why not FF?

[FFPete]

Hi all, I'm just coming across from the Free Flight fraternity with an honest question, looking for honest answers! Our contest/meet attendance numbers are dwindling, but the Radio Control world doesn't seem to have that problem and I'm trying to understand why. So we can hopefully do something about it!

As you're clearly interested in model aircraft, I just wondered why you got into RC and not FF? Perhaps you've never tried FF - If so, why not? Or you have, but preferred RC - So what did you prefer? Maybe you'd like to try FF, but weren't sure where to start or how to get involved?

I could probably come back with a load of questions, but they're the basic ones above, let's have a conversation

Cheers, FFPete

[Guest]

Free Flight mayhem at BMFA...

**LINK**

Free flight protective measures are more expensive than a DX20

[John T]

Hi FFPete,

I used to fly FF and CL before I started flying RC. The main reason I don't fly FF nowadays is simply because the local club field I fly from isn't suitable for free flight. The large open flying fields of my youth are becoming a scarce commodity and I suspect this is the main reason for the decline in FF.

[Cuban8]

 

Hi FF Pete - more than happy to discuss.

Why do people collect stamps and others collect coins or medals? Motor racing?......bikes or cars (bikes for me!).....

It's whatever floats your metaphorical boat IMHO. I like radio controlled aircraft purely for the reason that one has (usually!) control over the aeroplane and the ability to make it do your bidding throughout the flight. To not have real-time control of a model via radio, for me defeats the whole purpose of being on the flying field. Please don't mistake my point of view for criticism or belittling those that prefer FF. Trimming a FF model is a fantastic skill to get right, but I wouldn't get anything like the buzz of putting an aerobatic model through its paces or having a warbird tailchase with a flying mate compared to  FF. I do find free flight interesting and I've had a bit of fun now and again with a simple FF model, but for me the interest to take it any further is just not there.

TBH, no matter which segment of the hobby appeals, we are participating in a slowly declining area of recreation - despite what you say about R/C comps, they are mostly a shadow of their former selves of a few decades ago. Even the drone craze has pretty much run its course despite, mistakenly in my opinion, high hopes for it to inject a mass of new life into clubs.

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 29/08/2020 09:49:13

[Brian Cooper]

I was in to Free Flight when I was a kid. I started at the age of about 5 with rubber powered "pocket money" models, but quickly progressed to bigger and better models. 

Radio control (from the age of 10....... 55 years ago) just seemed a natural progression. Plus, the ability to actually control the model throughout the flight had a huge attraction. . And as radios became more sophisticated, the attraction just grew and grew.

Basically, I haven't grown out of it yet.....

B.C.

Edited By Brian Cooper on 29/08/2020 09:49:59

Edited By Brian Cooper on 29/08/2020 09:51:34

[Capt Kremen]

In a word - Practicalities.

Suitable flying sites that can accommodate all wind directions.

Average age of participants less (not always!) mobile and agile to chase after models.

UK weather - winds showing a trend to increase in strength less suitable to flying sites available.

Closure or restriction of traditional military venues used e.g. Middle Wallop.

And of course .... fewer 'fetchermites' these days!

[Bob Cotsford]

Posted by Brian Cooper on 29/08/2020 09:48:35:

I was in to Free Flight when I was a kid. I started at the age of about 5 with rubber powered "pocket money" models, but quickly progressed to bigger and better models.

Radio control (from the age of 10....... 55 years ago) just seemed a natural progression. Plus, the ability to actually control the model throughout the flight had a huge attraction. . And as radios became more sophisticated, the attraction just grew and grew.

Basically, I haven't grown out of it yet.....

B.C.

Edited By Brian Cooper on 29/08/2020 09:49:59

Edited By Brian Cooper on 29/08/2020 09:51:34

What Brian said. Plus the lack of suitable sites, lack of athletic ability for chasing models downwind, aging hands don't cope with lightweight structures so well - I could go on, and on, and on.

[Cuban8]

The 'natural progression' thing is interesting but not necessarily correct. The number of times that people have said to me when they've discovered that "I play with toy planes" is " I bet you'd love to fly real ones"

Well, I dispute that my models are toys in the accepted sense of a child's plaything or the pointless overindulgence of a supercar and I have no hankering for a PPL given the cost, stress and palaver of modern private civil aviation. I also like to look at the aeroplane itself whilst it's in the air - I can look at the ground from a tall building/hill/holiday jet as the fancy takes me.

I guess most of us started off with simple pocket money rubber models Sleek Streaks and the like or control line (I've never flown a control line model ) but for me since childhood the goal has always been to have radio control - remember the comic character General Jumbo in the 60s? I suppose the problem for FF these days is that anyone interested in flying models of any sort can 'leapfrog' the early stages that we went through and go straight to a simple radio model aircraft/heli/drone coupled with the tech to ease the learning experience and hence be totally unaware of the FF world. It's also rare for the public to come across R/C being flown these days for various reasons, I'd think finding a group flying FF are even far less likely to be encountered. We tend to like to keep a low profile whatever we fly for fear of upsetting someone.

Many people outside of our hobby still find in amazing that we risk maybe  hundreds of pounds and many hours of work on a model  albeit with more or less bullet proof radios these days, so the thought of 'just letting go and leaving a model to itself' must be mind boggling to some. That's the attraction?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 29/08/2020 10:42:49

[Peter Miller]

Quite simple really. Farmers don't like people tramping across their crops.

Most of our club are gasping for breath and collaps into chairs after the looooooong walk from the cars. All of 200 yards up a slight slope.

We do have a member who loves free flight....he has watched more than one rubber powered model vanishing across the fields never to be seen again. For some reason the rest of us didn't really see the point....he flies indoors now.

I used to love control line but even that is a bit too much for me now.

You have to be good to fly the complete flight like this

Edited By Peter Miller on 29/08/2020 10:57:51

[David Davis]

I built my first model aircraft, a Keil Kraft Ajax rubber powered model in 1959 when I was eleven years old. I'm now seventy-two. My next model was a Keil Kraft glider. Neither it nor the Ajax were particularly successful but I took my time in building my third model, a Veron Cardinal powered by a Mills 75 financed out of my paper round and that was quite successful. I'd go as far to say that the Cardinal is the reason that I'm still in the hobby to this day. I can still see the sun shining through the yellow tissue of the wings on that windless summer day when we first flew it.

My Uncle Geoff taught me how to build. He was to die of cancer within two or three years of us building the Ajax but shortly before he died he gave me all of his models including a Tomboy and the fuselage of a double sized Tomboy. He was a draughtsman and had drawn up his own plan. I've just finished re-building the model,. It's on its fourth fuselage! I took it for its maiden flight earlier this morning. It Dutch-rolled all over the place with all of that dihedral. I'll sort something out, less rudder travel, some expo on the transmitter maybe..

My experience of the free flight models of my youth has given me a basic grounding in aerodynamics which has helped me with my radio controlled models though trimming is largely carried out by altering the centre of gravity or using the elevator trim facility on the transmitter. I have to look away when club colleagues haul their trainers from the runway with bootfulls of up elevator and hardly adequate forward flying speed, being rescued from disaster solely by the power and reliability of their OS 46s! Try that on a model Spitfire and there'd be balsa all over the place.

So why don't I fly free flight any more? Too old and slow to chase after the models. I was no good at climbing trees to retrieve them when I was eleven, I'm even worse now and even with the best-trimmed free flight models you have no control over how or where they land. My abiding memory of free flight is that I was always repairing them!

But free flight or radio control, this is a greying hobby. In thirty year's time our flying fields will be silent.

[perttime]

I get the impression that many who like the idea of FF go for Radio Assisted or Radio Trimmed flying, to keep the model within available space.

Modern contest FF is another matter but even there Radio De-Thermalizing seems to be popular.

[Jonathan M]

Welcome FFPete

I do both RC and FF. Both excellent activities, but really quite different. RC is predominantly about flying skill (and can sometimes include building skills) whereas FF is all about building and trimming skills.... and the sheer magic of successfully - eventually - trimming an uncontrolled model to fly incredibly realistically (or perform outstandingly if a duration type).

FF certainly isn't confined (as some people think) to outdoor duration models that get lost OOS or land in impenetrable fields, neither is it about uncontrolled diesel mayhem once a year.

There's a vibrant (UK and international) scene around FF scale - rubber, CO2, and electric flight - both indoors and outdoors: **LINK**

And there is also the continuation of an (albeit a once busier) outdoor scale diesel scene.

I mainly fly indoor scale (13" Peanut through to 20" sized, i.e. weighing 8-40g) at monthly meetings in a local school sports-hall, and have access to plenty of local fields for initial outdoor trimming sessions in calm weather, and in normal years there are Nationals and international events in which I compete. However I've also just joined another club which has an active diesel FF scene and the space in which to fly, and am increasingly interested in building a first scale model (in 44 years!) for this!

As to the original question I do wonder whether, if ARTFs didn't predominate the RC scene, it would be a lot less active?!

 

Edited By Jonathan M on 29/08/2020 12:12:03

[FFPete]

Posted by David H on 29/08/2020 09:18:15:

Free Flight mayhem at BMFA...

**LINK**

Free flight protective measures are more expensive than a DX20

I understand where you're coming from there, David, I've seen those guys at the FF Nats! I'm a more "serious" contest flyer, we're quite different to the "sports" flyers of the old cabin models. For us, accidents have never been an issue, we turn up with trimmed and safe aeroplanes

[FFPete]

Posted by John T on 29/08/2020 09:21:05:

Hi FFPete,

I used to fly FF and CL before I started flying RC. The main reason I don't fly FF nowadays is simply because the local club field I fly from isn't suitable for free flight. The large open flying fields of my youth are becoming a scarce commodity and I suspect this is the main reason for the decline in FF.

Hi John, this is a fair point, we don't have the choice we used to have, although we have a set of regular airfields (mostly ex-RAF and Army land) which have worked well for years for contests. Local "trimming" sites are more of a problem to find.. There are ideas about for "small field flying" and the advent of Radio Dethermaliser has certainly helped, no more fuse or even clockwork timers these days for serious flying, the models can be brought down with a press of a button now. Ideas have also been floated for some limited on-board automatic control using modern tech to steer models back upwind that are going too far!

Edited By FFPete on 29/08/2020 12:43:12

[kc]

Why go by bus when you can drive your own car!

Why don't the Free Flight brigade modernise and fit RC?

The answer is that people like to use the technology available to them or they stick to the old ways.

My annual trip to Old Warden and a walk over to the free flight section is enough to make me prefer to stick to RC instead of dodging planes coming at me from all sides with no warning.

[FFPete]

Posted by Cuban8 on 29/08/2020 09:30:35:

Hi FF Pete - more than happy to discuss.

Why do people collect stamps and others collect coins or medals? Motor racing?......bikes or cars (bikes for me!).....

It's whatever floats your metaphorical boat IMHO. I like radio controlled aircraft purely for the reason that one has (usually!) control over the aeroplane and the ability to make it do your bidding throughout the flight. To not have real-time control of a model via radio, for me defeats the whole purpose of being on the flying field. Please don't mistake my point of view for criticism or belittling those that prefer FF. Trimming a FF model is a fantastic skill to get right, but I wouldn't get anything like the buzz of putting an aerobatic model through its paces or having a warbird tailchase with a flying mate compared to FF. I do find free flight interesting and I've had a bit of fun now and again with a simple FF model, but for me the interest to take it any further is just not there.

TBH, no matter which segment of the hobby appeals, we are participating in a slowly declining area of recreation - despite what you say about R/C comps, they are mostly a shadow of their former selves of a few decades ago. Even the drone craze has pretty much run its course despite, mistakenly in my opinion, high hopes for it to inject a mass of new life into clubs.

Edited By Cuban8 on 29/08/2020 09:49:13

Hi Cuban, I do understand that direct control appeals to RC flyers, to perhaps come closer to the skill of flying a full-size aircraft. For contest FF, the fun is about flying for as long as possible within the rules and trying out new ideas and aerodynamic thoughts to improve the models. Picking a good thermal is always fun and the chase is even enjoyable, especially as we have electronic beacons and handheld receivers for location these days.

I really wasn't aware that RC comps are a shadow of their former selves, so you'd say that model flying in general is losing interest, not good news...

[FFPete]

Posted by Brian Cooper on 29/08/2020 09:48:35:

I was in to Free Flight when I was a kid. I started at the age of about 5 with rubber powered "pocket money" models, but quickly progressed to bigger and better models.

Radio control (from the age of 10....... 55 years ago) just seemed a natural progression. Plus, the ability to actually control the model throughout the flight had a huge attraction. . And as radios became more sophisticated, the attraction just grew and grew.

Basically, I haven't grown out of it yet.....

B.C.

Edited By Brian Cooper on 29/08/2020 09:49:59

Edited By Brian Cooper on 29/08/2020 09:51:34

Hi Brian, I've heard similar thoughts before about progressing to RC, although I guess it depends on how we define progress. The FF models I fly now have progressed significantly from 10 years ago, they progressed from 10 years before that, and so on. New materials, new technology, new ideas, Free Flight is constantly evolving. Perhaps a problem for FF is that people often see the old cabin "sports" models as being all there is? To be honest, if that was true, I doubt I would stay in FF either! The more serious contest scene is small but pretty vibrant with ideas and all sorts of tech. Perhaps familiarity plays a part, I've often thought of RC, but haven't done it myself as I've been so involved in FF and it's easier to keep going with what I know and have become good at.

[FFPete]

Posted by Cuban8 on 29/08/2020 10:25:57:

The 'natural progression' thing is interesting but not necessarily correct. The number of times that people have said to me when they've discovered that "I play with toy planes" is " I bet you'd love to fly real ones"

Well, I dispute that my models are toys in the accepted sense of a child's plaything or the pointless overindulgence of a supercar and I have no hankering for a PPL given the cost, stress and palaver of modern private civil aviation. I also like to look at the aeroplane itself whilst it's in the air - I can look at the ground from a tall building/hill/holiday jet as the fancy takes me.

I guess most of us started off with simple pocket money rubber models Sleek Streaks and the like or control line (I've never flown a control line model ) but for me since childhood the goal has always been to have radio control - remember the comic character General Jumbo in the 60s? I suppose the problem for FF these days is that anyone interested in flying models of any sort can 'leapfrog' the early stages that we went through and go straight to a simple radio model aircraft/heli/drone coupled with the tech to ease the learning experience and hence be totally unaware of the FF world. It's also rare for the public to come across R/C being flown these days for various reasons, I'd think finding a group flying FF are even far less likely to be encountered. We tend to like to keep a low profile whatever we fly for fear of upsetting someone.

Many people outside of our hobby still find in amazing that we risk maybe hundreds of pounds and many hours of work on a model albeit with more or less bullet proof radios these days, so the thought of 'just letting go and leaving a model to itself' must be mind boggling to some. That's the attraction?

Edited By Cuban8 on 29/08/2020 10:42:49

You made some good points there. Any aeroplane is "real", they all follow the same principles, although there are effects of scale at different speeds, weights, spans and so on.

I understand what you're saying about going direct to RC without being aware of FF. If you go to a typical model shop, the aircraft section is dominated by RC and the staff are usually RC flyers. I think due to noise and perception of hazard, this has driven model aircraft out of public view, as you say, which doesn't help the hobby/sport. Electric models nowadays are much quieter and learning with a BMFA-associated club has got to help with that. I have trimming sites which have public access and people do see me and stop to talk sometimes, although I'm never sure how to turn that into new recruits.

I can see why letting go of an expensive (in time and money) model and just letting it fly might seem crazy! Ultimately, though, if you progress from something cheap and simple, and particularly if you're looking to do well in competition, over time it eventually makes perfect sense!

[FFPete]

Posted by Peter Miller on 29/08/2020 10:56:38:

Quite simple really. Farmers don't like people tramping across their crops.

Most of our club are gasping for breath and collaps into chairs after the looooooong walk from the cars. All of 200 yards up a slight slope.

We do have a member who loves free flight....he has watched more than one rubber powered model vanishing across the fields never to be seen again. For some reason the rest of us didn't really see the point....he flies indoors now.

I used to love control line but even that is a bit too much for me now.

You have to be good to fly the complete flight like this

Edited By Peter Miller on 29/08/2020 10:57:51

It's true that fields are an issue, although we always fly with permission and walk around the edge before spotting the model and walking the shortest distance to get it. We also avoid high season for crops, so FF has always been able to work with this. We have flyers in their 70s still retrieving, I suppose a lifetime of doing it keeps you fit!

I don't want to curse it, but I haven't lost a model in many years! We all have radio beacons and trackers these days, as long as you get the signal you always find it in the end. Retrieving is part of the skill/fun for us, believe it or not.

Awesome Control Line effort there!!

[FFPete]

Posted by David Davis on 29/08/2020 11:02:18:

I built my first model aircraft, a Keil Kraft Ajax rubber powered model in 1959 when I was eleven years old. I'm now seventy-two. My next model was a Keil Kraft glider. Neither it nor the Ajax were particularly successful but I took my time in building my third model, a Veron Cardinal powered by a Mills 75 financed out of my paper round and that was quite successful. I'd go as far to say that the Cardinal is the reason that I'm still in the hobby to this day. I can still see the sun shining through the yellow tissue of the wings on that windless summer day when we first flew it.

My Uncle Geoff taught me how to build. He was to die of cancer within two or three years of us building the Ajax but shortly before he died he gave me all of his models including a Tomboy and the fuselage of a double sized Tomboy. He was a draughtsman and had drawn up his own plan. I've just finished re-building the model,. It's on its fourth fuselage! I took it for its maiden flight earlier this morning. It Dutch-rolled all over the place with all of that dihedral. I'll sort something out, less rudder travel, some expo on the transmitter maybe..

My experience of the free flight models of my youth has given me a basic grounding in aerodynamics which has helped me with my radio controlled models though trimming is largely carried out by altering the centre of gravity or using the elevator trim facility on the transmitter. I have to look away when club colleagues haul their trainers from the runway with bootfulls of up elevator and hardly adequate forward flying speed, being rescued from disaster solely by the power and reliability of their OS 46s! Try that on a model Spitfire and there'd be balsa all over the place.

So why don't I fly free flight any more? Too old and slow to chase after the models. I was no good at climbing trees to retrieve them when I was eleven, I'm even worse now and even with the best-trimmed free flight models you have no control over how or where they land. My abiding memory of free flight is that I was always repairing them!

But free flight or radio control, this is a greying hobby. In thirty year's time our flying fields will be silent.

So again, age of participants seems to be an issue in RC as well as FF. Can it really be that it will die out altogether? I struggle to believe that can be true! I hope it isn't... Some Free Flighters have told me that it was the WW2 and post-war fascination with aircraft that drove the hobby originally. I suppose aeroplanes are seen as more mundane nowadays, it's a shame that computer games are making so many things "virtual". My nephew (who I have taken flying) complains that his friends only want to play computer games! We have a generation who want to do everything indoors and don't interact as much with the real world, sadly.

Regarding repairs and landing of FF models, the prevalence of carbon fibre and other modern materials in the models makes them much more robust and able to survive than the old-fashioned balsa-and-tissue kind. We have push-button dethermalisers on models now, so there is much more control of the landing too. My impression is that evolution of FF is not so visible, which might be part of the problem? Perhaps people are not so aware of how far things have come and how many problem areas have improved in FF.

[FFPete]

Posted by Jonathan M on 29/08/2020 12:10:03:

Welcome FFPete

I do both RC and FF. Both excellent activities, but really quite different. RC is predominantly about flying skill (and can sometimes include building skills) whereas FF is all about building and trimming skills.... and the sheer magic of successfully - eventually - trimming an uncontrolled model to fly incredibly realistically (or perform outstandingly if a duration type).

FF certainly isn't confined (as some people think) to outdoor duration models that get lost OOS or land in impenetrable fields, neither is it about uncontrolled diesel mayhem once a year.

There's a vibrant (UK and international) scene around FF scale - rubber, CO2, and electric flight - both indoors and outdoors: **LINK**

And there is also the continuation of an (albeit a once busier) outdoor scale diesel scene.

I mainly fly indoor scale (13" Peanut through to 20" sized, i.e. weighing 8-40g) at monthly meetings in a local school sports-hall, and have access to plenty of local fields for initial outdoor trimming sessions in calm weather, and in normal years there are Nationals and international events in which I compete. However I've also just joined another club which has an active diesel FF scene and the space in which to fly, and am increasingly interested in building a first scale model (in 44 years!) for this!

As to the original question I do wonder whether, if ARTFs didn't predominate the RC scene, it would be a lot less active?!

Edited By Jonathan M on 29/08/2020 12:12:03

Hi Jonathan, thanks. I think you've described the differences pretty well there. And the fact that FF really isn't about losing aeroplanes (it's actually very rare with modern tracking equipment) or badly-trimmed old-fashioned models (that niche does exist, but it doesn't represent modern Free Flight).

You mentioned that FF is about building and RC is dominated by ARTF. However, the builder-of-the-model rule was dropped from FF contests over 20 years ago. For those who aren't familiar, we used to have a rule that a model was only contest-legal if the flyer had built it himself. This was good for encouraging people to learn building skills and ensured a variety of interesting and personalised models. However, it was seen as spoiling participation numbers and was eventually dropped, so you can indeed buy ARTF free flight models nowadays. You can even design a model and commission someone else (there are factories of a sort in Eastern Europe) to build it for you, so the aerodynamic design aspect of FF remains. Many people do still build their own, of course.

[fly boy3]

Hi FFPete, I love all things model flying. Any pictures of the modern up to date models you speak of ? Non cabin type models I presume. Cheers

[FFPete]

Posted by kc on 29/08/2020 12:50:34:

Why go by bus when you can drive your own car!

Why don't the Free Flight brigade modernise and fit RC?

The answer is that people like to use the technology available to them or they stick to the old ways.

My annual trip to Old Warden and a walk over to the free flight section is enough to make me prefer to stick to RC instead of dodging planes coming at me from all sides with no warning.

Hi KC, we have modernised with RC dethermaliser, servo actuation of trimmed surfaces, electronic timers for control, use of carbon, kevlar, machined aluminium etc, electric motor powered models instead of rubber or glow/diesel engines. Progress has never stopped! Although I understand that different people prefer different amounts of modern tech.

This thread is quite informative, as an overall impression I'm getting is that FF is perhaps perceived among the RC community as old-fashioned, the models aren't that good, there are safety issues. And that's a real shame, because modern FF isn't like that at all !! Clearly we aren't a visible community, but a modern contest features safe, high-performance models with electronics, modern composite materials and continuous technological progress driven by competitors. If any of you are BMFA members, this stuff does regularly appear in the bi-monthly BMFA news magazine. Maybe I'm wrong, but I could imagine RC flyers would tend to skip over the FF sections, or are simply unsure what they're looking at on the page.

So one thing I guess FF needs to think about is how to be more visible and how to communicate the modern side to people! Clearly the old balsa-and-tissue stuff (which is still regularly flown safely and well, with radio dethermaliser and tracking beacon) very much drives the perception, and what I would call the "sports" or "fun flyer" segment rather than competition flying.

[Bob Cotsford]

Perhaps as the majority of club modellers are 'sports' and 'fun flyers' rather than active competition participants the old stick and tissue stuff is actually more relevant to most? Possibly the high-tech stuff is why RC flyers tend to skip over the FF pages, they just don't relate to it.

[wingcoax]

As was told to me many years ago at Primrose Valley modelling week by a number of the older generation who were flying freeflight models.".Radio is only a means of ensuring the model lands in the same county"