Connectors - which way round

[TonyS]

When I worked in the electronic industry, the terminology was determined by the connectors themselves, not the housing. Its not screwy thinking. With some connectors the housing is reversible and you can fit either male of female pins, or, indeed, sometimes both in the same gender housing. Done deliberately in complex wiring applications to avoid being able to connect the wrong connectors together.

I guess it makes sense If it's possible to mix the male and female internal connectors within a housing. For example you could maybe fit two male bullets in a HXT housing I guess.

If you accept all of this then the descriptions need to be a lot more long-winded to be absolutely accurate.

Personally, I think for non-engineers (those of us who just want to build and fly planes and don't want to make a career of electrical engineering!) There are only certain housings we use and they generally follow the same pattern of internal connectors (otherwise it would be a real pain) so for me, just describing the gender in terms of the housing makes absolute sense because you'll know what you're talking about and you don't need to get into a tizzy when there's a male and female part in each half of the housing.

[TonyS]

Posted by Phil Green on 07/10/2020 14:43:59:

There are also half-and-half outers too, how would your method describe those? We in the UK got it right, its not so much electronics as basic biology!

 

Surely these housings aren't described in terms of gender - if each half is the same, gender is irrelevant, in which case the internal is the only differentiation....?

Edited By TonyS on 07/10/2020 14:53:51

Edited By TonyS on 07/10/2020 14:54:15

[Gary Manuel]

Posted by TonyS on 07/10/2020 14:50:46:

When I worked in the electronic industry, the terminology was determined by the connectors themselves, not the housing. Its not screwy thinking. With some connectors the housing is reversible and you can fit either male of female pins, or, indeed, sometimes both in the same gender housing. Done deliberately in complex wiring applications to avoid being able to connect the wrong connectors together.

I guess it makes sense If it's possible to mix the male and female internal connectors within a housing. For example you could maybe fit two male bullets in a HXT housing I guess.

If you accept all of this then the descriptions need to be a lot more long-winded to be absolutely accurate.

Personally, I think for non-engineers (those of us who just want to build and fly planes and don't want to make a career of electrical engineering!) There are only certain housings we use and they generally follow the same pattern of internal connectors (otherwise it would be a real pain) so for me, just describing the gender in terms of the housing makes absolute sense because you'll know what you're talking about and you don't need to get into a tizzy when there's a male and female part in each half of the housing.

Except that you'd finish up with the wrong part if you ordered it based on the shape of the housing as per the OP.

[Gary Manuel]

How about this one then?

[TonyS]

Posted by Gary Manuel on 07/10/2020 15:02:18:

How about this one then?

Excellent point. How would that be described? I'd say "whatever the name of the connector - male live or female live whichever"

[Toni Reynaud]

It's a connector, not a plug or socket.

[TonyS]

Maybe this explains my confusion a bit better. As far as I can see the descriptions are correct but inconsistent in the case of XT connectors.....

[Andy48]

There's a couple of good examples for starters.

Take the first plug and socket, an EC2 the blue one. That is simply a housing, you can actually put the male pin in either housing. I believe the second one is the same too.

If you take the Deans plug and socket, there is no housing shroud on either side, so you have to go by the contacts as you have done.

Think of servo connectors, the male can go in either type of housing.

[TonyS]

Posted by Andy48 on 07/10/2020 15:42:28:

There's a couple of good examples for starters.

Take the first plug and socket, an EC2 the blue one. That is simply a housing, you can actually put the male pin in either housing. I believe the second one is the same too.

If you take the Deans plug and socket, there is no housing shroud on either side, so you have to go by the contacts as you have done.

Think of servo connectors, the male can go in either type of housing.

I suppose I think of it this way...

If I was in the workshop and I was asking someone to pass me a part I would say can you pass me a male EC5 connector or a male Deans connector or a male 4mm bullet etc etc. Now, with the XT connector I'd be saying a male XT60 that takes the female bullets or a female XT60 which just seems wrong....

[john davidson 1]

EC5s are HERMAPHRODITE, simple, I go along with the engineers, the pins decide male or female.I was tempted to say AC/DC but that would only muddy the water further

[Andy48]

Posted by TonyS on 07/10/2020 16:14:47:

Posted by Andy48 on 07/10/2020 15:42:28:

There's a couple of good examples for starters.

Take the first plug and socket, an EC2 the blue one. That is simply a housing, you can actually put the male pin in either housing. I believe the second one is the same too.

If you take the Deans plug and socket, there is no housing shroud on either side, so you have to go by the contacts as you have done.

Think of servo connectors, the male can go in either type of housing.

I suppose I think of it this way...

If I was in the workshop and I was asking someone to pass me a part I would say can you pass me a male EC5 connector or a male Deans connector or a male 4mm bullet etc etc. Now, with the XT connector I'd be saying a male XT60 that takes the female bullets or a female XT60 which just seems wrong....

Might seem wrong to you, but going by the connectors themselves is foolproof. Using your view there are numerous flaws as has been pointed out.

[MattyB]

Posted by TonyS on 07/10/2020 14:36:39:

Posted by MattyB on 07/10/2020 12:55:58:

Seems pretty simple to me - in anything that uses bullets, it's the bullets that define the gender of the plug, not the housing. Remember we had bullet connectors before any of the other types, so they effectively set the "standard" for the connector variants that followed. It can be confusing for newcomers, but changing now would be just as confusing and wouldn't achieve anything IMO.

I’m not suggesting that we can change I’m just suggesting that we got it wrong. The way we do it isn’t specific. If we gendered the housings we’d all know that the plug was male. The way we currently do it you get into a pickle with say EC5 connectors. How do you define which half you’re talking about Given there’s a male and female bullet in both parts?

Sorry, but whether you or I think we got it right or wrong doesn't matter a jot - it ain't going to change, so just accept it and find a way of remembering.

PS - For EC5s specifically the solution is very simple - don't use the things, they are horrible to disconnect/reconnect and vulnerable to cracking! Another Horizon Hobby "triumph"....

Edited By MattyB on 07/10/2020 16:45:20

[TonyS]

Posted by Andy48 on 07/10/2020 16:34:03:

Posted by TonyS on 07/10/2020 16:14:47:

Posted by Andy48 on 07/10/2020 15:42:28:

There's a couple of good examples for starters.

Take the first plug and socket, an EC2 the blue one. That is simply a housing, you can actually put the male pin in either housing. I believe the second one is the same too.

If you take the Deans plug and socket, there is no housing shroud on either side, so you have to go by the contacts as you have done.

Think of servo connectors, the male can go in either type of housing.

I suppose I think of it this way...

If I was in the workshop and I was asking someone to pass me a part I would say can you pass me a male EC5 connector or a male Deans connector or a male 4mm bullet etc etc. Now, with the XT connector I'd be saying a male XT60 that takes the female bullets or a female XT60 which just seems wrong....

Might seem wrong to you, but going by the connectors themselves is foolproof. Using your view there are numerous flaws as has been pointed out.

I think that’s a stretch to say ‘numerous flaws’ - there’s only one and that relates potentially confusing the internal connections. If engineers are used to wiring housings with different polarities and different male/female combinations then I’m glad I’m not an engineer - seems to me that standardising the whole shebang would lead to much less confusion and far fewer risks of error.

as for “going by the connectors” I suggest we should perhaps stop the practice of calling housings ‘connectors’ which is commonplace in everything I’ve read concerning RC model building.

All that said, I will agree that I’m not going to change it so I just have to go along with it.

[Andy48]

Firstly you seem to have ignored the flaws in your arguement, the Deans plug, where there is no shroud on one half of the connector so you have to go by the contacts, and the horrible EC5 type connector where the housing can have either male or female pins.

Second, there is no way you can confuse the internal connectors, they are either male or female.

Thirdly engineers are NOT used to wiring housings with different polarities and different male/female combinations. I really don't know where you plucked that gem of misinformation from. Things fitted to walls are sockets, and the polarity of the contacts is always the same. Indeed on completion of a wiring job this is one of the checks made. You can buy simple testers to check the polarity is correct.

Fourthly there is standardisation, YOU GO BY THE CONTACT NOT THE CONNECTOR APPEARANCE.

Fifthly, a connector is the whole component, whether it be an uninsulated contact or a bunch of contacts in some sort of housing.

[TonyS]

Posted by Andy48 on 07/10/2020 19:43:36:

Firstly you seem to have ignored the flaws in your arguement, the Deans plug, where there is no shroud on one half of the connector so you have to go by the contacts, and the horrible EC5 type connector where the housing can have either male or female pins.

Second, there is no way you can confuse the internal connectors, they are either male or female.

Thirdly engineers are NOT used to wiring housings with different polarities and different male/female combinations. I really don't know where you plucked that gem of misinformation from. Things fitted to walls are sockets, and the polarity of the contacts is always the same. Indeed on completion of a wiring job this is one of the checks made. You can buy simple testers to check the polarity is correct.

Fourthly there is standardisation, YOU GO BY THE CONTACT NOT THE CONNECTOR APPEARANCE.

Fifthly, a connector is the whole component, whether it be an uninsulated contact or a bunch of contacts in some sort of housing.

Wow Andy, cool your jets, you’ll give yourself a funny turn.

my argument isn’t flawed. If there’s an obvious plug/ socket appearance to the housing it’s male or female and that all, It works as easily with a Deans as it does to an XT60 say.

I’ll quote an earlier post by you “I've done a lot of safety critical design work using plugs / sockets of all shapes and sizes, including mixing of male and female pins within individual plugs and sockets” . I may be misinterpreting but how is that standardisation and my point is if all housing are wired the same - which would make sense given it would be helpful to know if you bought a battery say, with an XT60 then the positive and negative and males and females were always going to be in the same place then you could happily call the housing a male housing without having to ‘make sure’ by referring to the connectors inside. Surely, and this is the point, if everything is standard then the argument that you have to avoid confusion by referring to the internal connectors is unnecessary?

As for “there is standardisation you go by the internal connectors” that doesn’t help if you want someone to pass you a part that has both a male and a female does it?

I was confused by the terminology. Everyone seems to cheerfully (and far too casually IMHO) refer to housings as connectors. A male XT60 connector in my eyes refers to the well, XT60 bit. If someone had said a male XT60 housing then we’re all clear but to say a Male XT60 connector when they actually meant male connectors in a female XT60 housing IS confusing.

Engineers may like to be pedantic about engineering stuff. I like to pedantic about the use of language.

Surely we can have a debate and see each other’s points without getting all annoyed?

[Andy48]

Posted by TonyS on 07/10/2020 20:14:50:

I’ll quote an earlier post by you “I've done a lot of safety critical design work using plugs / sockets of all shapes and sizes, including mixing of male and female pins within individual plugs and sockets” .

As for “there is standardisation you go by the internal connectors” that doesn’t help if you want someone to pass you a part that has both a male and a female does it?

Engineers may like to be pedantic about engineering stuff. I like to pedantic about the use of language.

Surely we can have a debate and see each other’s points without getting all annoyed?

Actually the quote you've given is not mine.

You might think you are pedantic about language, but please don't class engineers as being illiterate. We are not and personally, I would like to think my standard of English is pretty good. Certainly the editors I've worked with over the last 30 years think so. Engineers, mathematicians and scientists work on precise accurate, language and terminology.

I'm not getting annoyed, don't see where you read that unless again you are misreading what I have written.

You seem to want to differentiate between housings and connectors. Yes they are different. A connector housing is the shell that does not come with contacts. An XT60 connector is a single item, it does not have a housing and bullets as you like to call them, (although a bullet connector is a specific type of connector, not a generalisation). A servo connector has a housing, usually black into which you can inset either male or female pins (or both if you wish).

One always knows which is the live part of a connector, its the socket, and each pin is always shrouded. Thus the battery end of an XT60 is always female. Just as the live end of a house wiring connector is always the socket. The exposed pins or connectors are the non-live parts for obvious reasons. A 240v plug is male.

[TonyS]

Hi Andy,

Apologies for the misquote.

Please stop taking everything personally it distracts from the debate. I’ve never argued that all engineers are illiterate and certainly never questioned your command of the English language.

Your explanation of the situation is very good. The only issue I would have is that pin or socket, both ends of an XT 60 or XT 90 are shrouded and indeed there are quite a few connectors that could be described as such.

Anyway, it’s a moot point given that’s how it’s done and my opinion is somewhat irrelevant.

(As for the getting annoyed - the convention in posts online is that capitalisation is akin to shouting. One doesn’t ordinarily shout in a polite debate unless one’s getting annoyed).

Regards

Tony

[Phil Green]

Posted by TonyS on 06/10/2020 16:02:04:

When talking about connectors is it the internal elements that dictate whether it's male/female or is it whether it is the plug end (male) or the socket end (female) that dictates the male/female badge?

Tony, you asked a question which several competent and qualified engineers have answered unanimously. Reminds me of the flat-earthers on Youtube!
Cheers
Phil

 

 

Edited By Phil Green on 08/10/2020 01:21:07

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Andy48 on 07/10/2020 21:38:10:

Posted by TonyS on 07/10/2020 20:14:50:

I’ll quote an earlier post by you “I've done a lot of safety critical design work using plugs / sockets of all shapes and sizes, including mixing of male and female pins within individual plugs and sockets” .

As for “there is standardisation you go by the internal connectors” that doesn’t help if you want someone to pass you a part that has both a male and a female does it?

Engineers may like to be pedantic about engineering stuff. I like to pedantic about the use of language.

Surely we can have a debate and see each other’s points without getting all annoyed?

Actually the quote you've given is not mine.

You might think you are pedantic about language, but please don't class engineers as being illiterate. We are not and personally, I would like to think my standard of English is pretty good. Certainly the editors I've worked with over the last 30 years think so. Engineers, mathematicians and scientists work on precise accurate, language and terminology.

I'm not getting annoyed, don't see where you read that unless again you are misreading what I have written.

You seem to want to differentiate between housings and connectors. Yes they are different. A connector housing is the shell that does not come with contacts. An XT60 connector is a single item, it does not have a housing and bullets as you like to call them, (although a bullet connector is a specific type of connector, not a generalisation). A servo connector has a housing, usually black into which you can inset either male or female pins (or both if you wish).

One always knows which is the live part of a connector, its the socket, and each pin is always shrouded. Thus the battery end of an XT60 is always female. Just as the live end of a house wiring connector is always the socket. The exposed pins or connectors are the non-live parts for obvious reasons. A 240v plug is male.

Just in terms of our widely used 4mm bullet connectors, in the electric flight arena, exactly which part would you consider to be live and therefor, by that definition, a female socket?

Surely that is going to be different whether charging or discharging. If one wishes to polarise those connectors, to prevent inadvertently connecting them the wrong way round, then one will have a male pin on one battery lead and a female socket on the other lead. The alternative is to have two female sockets, with that ever present risk of reverse polarity connection. Since the battery has to be connected to the ESC or charger frequently, that polarity protection is important.

Nobody in their right mind would use two male pins on the battery, for obvious reasons, but my understanding is that the convention that I have always used - male pin on the battery positive - is inherited from the desire to have a shrouded female socket on the positive lead from the charger, which was often connected to the car battery, under the bonnet, with the risk of a short if the positive lead contacted the bodywork on a negative earth car.

[TonyS]

Posted by Phil Green on 07/10/2020 23:44:49:

Posted by TonyS on 06/10/2020 16:02:04:

When talking about connectors is it the internal elements that dictate whether it's male/female or is it whether it is the plug end (male) or the socket end (female) that dictates the male/female badge?

Tony, you asked a question which several competent and qualified engineers have answered unanimously. Reminds me of the flat-earthers on Youtube!
Cheers
Phil

Edited By Phil Green on 08/10/2020 01:21:07

Maybe it’s because it didn’t seem logical to me and discussing it would help my understanding. Perhaps the question might be flipped and you might ask how come it’s not been possible to convince me that there was a good reason a lot quicker.
I’m naturally inquisitive and very logical in my thinking. I also dislike “ because that’s the way we’ve always done it” kinds of answers. I never accept the “because I’m qualified and therefore you should just shut up and accept what I’m saying “ response as that’s not the way to educate.
There are lots of things in the world that I’ve thought made little sense until I’ve understood some of the rationale behind how they came about. I could probably name a few in my own field of expertise. I’d like to think I’d have the patience to aid someone’s understanding if they asked me rather than become defensive or irritated.
by the way, f you’d like a membership form for the Flat Earth Society I still have a couple. 😉

[Andy48]

You are expecting far too much. As in this case the terminology was set by convention many decades ago. Its just that, a convention, but quite simple and it works well. I wonder did you spend hours trying to understand why we drive on the left when you learned to drive, because there is no logical reason for that?

[Brian Cooper]

Sigh............!!

[TonyS]

Posted by Andy48 on 08/10/2020 09:11:56:

You are expecting far too much. As in this case the terminology was set by convention many decades ago. Its just that, a convention, but quite simple and it works well. I wonder did you spend hours trying to understand why we drive on the left when you learned to drive, because there is no logical reason for that?

Actually yes Andy I still do wonder why we drive on the left and some countries on the right. It's the way I'm wired I guess.

[TonyS]

Posted by Brian Cooper on 08/10/2020 10:04:16:

Sigh............!!

Brian, I'm curious. If you're tired of the debate why don't you just ignore it and go and find something more interesting? What's in the DNA that you feel you need to let us know you're bored?

[Doctor Chinnery]

By half way down the second page I was beginning to lose the will to live.

I skipped reading the entire third page prior to adding my comment as just the thought of doing so caused my body temperature to start dropping and my pulse to s-l--o---w - - - z-z--z ---- z