The Threat of Overpricing

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I think we've had it very good for a while, ARTFs and the like for very little money, time to adjust to the new reality.

[Former Member]

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[Former Member]

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[Martin McIntosh]

Don`t `buy` all of this. I recently received a bottle of c.a. from a model shop. The price sticker left on it said £8.49 but I was charged £11.49, albeit less than most at £12.99. You cannot simply blame Brexit, Covid etc on everything. All traders are trying to recoup their losses at our expense and hoping that we will not notice. Only yesterday I was about to buy a bottle of Coke from Sainsburys but it was £2.40 as against the price two days previously of £1.60.

[Cuban8]

Posted by Martin McIntosh on 22/11/2020 17:48:00:

Don`t `buy` all of this. I recently received a bottle of c.a. from a model shop. The price sticker left on it said £8.49 but I was charged £11.49, albeit less than most at £12.99. You cannot simply blame Brexit, Covid etc on everything. All traders are trying to recoup their losses at our expense and hoping that we will not notice. Only yesterday I was about to buy a bottle of Coke from Sainsburys but it was £2.40 as against the price two days previously of £1.60.

My advice is to buy your CA on Ebay and do your shopping at Lidl/Aldi.

[Nigel R]

Posted by Martin McIntosh on 22/11/2020 17:48:00:

All traders are trying to recoup their losses at our expense and hoping that we will not notice.

Whether they hope we will notice (or not) is rather irrelevant. They have to make a profit for their endeavours or they will cease to exist.

[Former Member]

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[Former Member]

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[Peter Jenkins]

The key point in the OP is that the original Acrowot was several years old. I suspect that he is conditioned by the price he paid at the time. However, I am always surprised that people spend over £500 on foamie scale models with retracts, flaps and bomb dropping kit. On the face of it that's a lot of money. But price up a wood kit with all the additional pieces of hardware (e.g. retracts) and you start to get to a very sobering figure very quickly!

What no one has mentioned is the manpower cost of fitting in the servos, motor, connecting up and checking it all works and then packing the thing up in a box. How much does packaging add to the whole. Plus there is the cost of finance in buying and maintaining in stock the kits and equipment that we need to buy from time to time.

There is always the option of repairing the old Acrowot but I suspect the OP would prefer not to spend the time involved in repair - compare that with buying a new ready to do Acrowot and there probably won't be much difference between the two provided you cost out your time at a realistic level - better than minimum pay I would suggest as you need a level of skill and training to do assemble and test models to production line standards.

We should now be preparing to pay a good deal more than we have been used to paying. The reason we've had it so good for so long is that we outsourced almost all our manufacturing to China and other low cost East Asian countries. The recent Covid crisis has demonstrated that we in the West are in a very poor position as we go forward as we no longer have control of our ability to manufacture stuff that we need. So, I fear the OP will continue to post about the ridiculous price of ready to go stuff as the price rises inexorably as we try and get away from our reliance on cheap oil and transportation to save the planet.

We ain't seen nothing yet!

[Nigel R]

In my experience, very few people remember the cost of time. Any self employed on this site will be keenly aware of what their time is worth, but most in permanent employ may well have been shielded from that side of business.

And on the consumer side of the fence, thanks to mass manufacturing, in a lot of markets, we often don't need to pay for very much time.

Consider;

A white Ikea shelving unit, stamped out of a production line for global distribution, for £50.

Or,

Contract a professional carpenter to design and make something just like it, that will be £1k for the week (s)he spends on it.

Lastly, don't forget that blow moulded Wot Not, not only has to pay it's own tooling back and make profit on all the things Peter mentions, it also has to help foot the bill for the tooling on models that don't sell very well.

If we had to pay a UK professional for the time sunk into building a wood model, the cost would be astronomical, my average wood build takes me a working month to do, how much would a carpenter or joiner cost for a whole month? The cost of our wood ARTFs is absolutely peanuts, because of their production line approach and the low labour costs where they are made, and if that low labour rate vanishes then expect the ARTFs to vanish too, as people won't buy them.

[Cuban8]

£1000 a week for a carpenter? I'll have to tell my retired chippy mate to dust off his tools. How the devil can a grand a week be justified?

[Former Member]

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[Erfolg]

The UK and World model market relies on numerous factors in setting prices to the consumer.

Many have been. identified within this thread. The market status and forces as it stands can be identified with hindsight. Much of what has happened, I certainly would not have predicted, nor the impact on our hobby. The fall of Communism, has lead to some initially low cost models from many of the eastern block countries such as Czech Republic, then moving to far higher added value,niche electronic products. A similar set of trends seems similar to have occurred in the far eastern countries. In contrast Japan, now seems to similar to the path the UK followed, in that very little modelling products come from the source, much that appears to be Japanese is badge engineered from else where.

We can argue about and discuss these trends, and never totally agree. Never mind what was inevitable.

What IMO is significant, is that Injection Moulding makes the most sense with large volumes of production. At the same time technology changes will have an impact on what sensibly can be Injection Moulding, such as 3D printing. Laser cutting also has and probably will continue to change how models can and will be produced, from kits to ARTF models.

Nothing new or visionary in any of this.

With many there is an Elephant in the room, that they cannot see. That is the declining numbers due to age profile of UK modellers and the lack of interest generally of younger age groups. IMO the writing is on the wall, in the immediate future the LMS will not return as they were. Although the exceptual regional retailer will. Sales will increasingly be via Internet.

What does this do to UK prices? I can only guess, if the World numbers is falling, then the advantages of volume and competition will no longer be available. The market will continue to change with time, this may mean that ARTF models will also change, be it price, numbers available, maybe the content.

I do agree in that some models are ridiculously expensive IMO. This has always been the case, even back in the 60s, when some would spend the price of a semi, or family car on a radio and what was then a large model. Retailers of course chased this market, as even if the % mark up was lower, the return was still much larger.

Magazines (nut just models, also, cars, homes etc) have always pushed the aspirational aspects. In our case, some with little or no immediate family, will often pay far more. Why die and the remnants of your estate ending up with some distant family member or worse still the UK Government.

Another set of people have limited disposal income, that will not or cannot spend on expensive models. Increasingly they appear to be ignored by the trade.

Where we are actually going is not at all clear to me, other than I suspect a diminishing UK market. The up side I never foresaw how things have actually developed in the past.

[Nigel R]

Posted by Cuban8 on 23/11/2020 12:09:28:

£1000 a week for a carpenter? I'll have to tell my retired chippy mate to dust off his tools. How the devil can a grand a week be justified?

because carpenters have to live in the real world and pay themselves a wage after expenses

I think you have somewhat made my point for me!

Edited By Nigel R on 23/11/2020 13:00:33

[Former Member]

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[Neil67]

Hi Peter, I find your response to be somewhat rude and patronising - you say "I suspect he is conditioned by the price he paid at the time". It might be worth checking before you make false assumptions. Assuming things can be a dangerous pastime as many will tell you.

My comments were nothing to do with the previous price I paid but my view of the marketplace in this example. If it helps I bought the Acrowot at our club auction which was selling off models donated to the club after a member died, with the monies raised going to his family.

As a professional Mechanical Engineer with years of experience in manufacturing in both mass and small scale production I am sure I have some expertise. Whilst I accept there are clearly other costs they are unlikely to be high at a unit level nor require highly skilled labour. Moreover, given the life of this product todate and it's sales it is likely, although I don't have the facts, that start up costs have long been absorbed or production would have ceased. If this is not the case and prices are rising because they haven't been absorbed the product may be becoming no longer financially viable and be nearing the end of it's natural life in its current form.

Patronisingly again, you state " I suspect the OP would prefer not to spend the time involved in repair". Well if you take time to read the thread you will see that I opted for a repair, which given my background I am both more than capable of and happy to undertake.

Finally, as your trend of patronisition continues you finish by saying " I fear the OP will continue to post about the ridiculous price of ready to go stuff". I don't post that often and you are entitled to your view but maybe you should stop being so pompous about other people's posts.

[Former Member]

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[Nigel R]

I think you're reading way too much into Peter's post.

"What I can tell you all is that no one is getting fat out of selling foam Wot 4's in this country, neither Ripmax or any retailer"

Now that I can believe.

Edited By Nigel R on 23/11/2020 15:20:34

[Martin McIntosh]

C8/DM.

I am fussy about the types of c.a. I use and bought the last 2oz bottle of thin Zap from my LMS long ago. No further stocks and no choice but to go on line.

Ever tried Aldi/Lidl coke? Foul stuff. I shop there for most other things though. The point about Sainsburys was that I was in the shop anyway because they had an item I wanted and was hardly likely to drive 3 miles to a budget shop to save 80p even if they had the genuine stuff so I did without rather than be plainly ripped off. Further to that, Tesco charge £20 for JD to go with the Coke one day then £35 the next.

Back to foamies, I seem to recollect that the price of a Wotever was about£110 a couple of years ago. I suppose that armchair cheque book `modellers` will just pay whatever the price is now anyway.

[Bob Cotsford]

If you think a carpenter is expensive try hiring an IT consultant!

I bet intercontinental transport, warehousing, distribution, high street shop rental, staffing and advertising costs dwarf the out of the gate factory costs by many orders, even after tooling, design and assembly costs are taken into account.

Martin, I'm with you on Aldi/Lidl food products but their tools are hard to beat in terms of value for money. Poundland and Wikes CAs are effective glues but you do notice the increased nastiness of the fumes from them compared to eg Zap.

[Pete B]

Gents, please bear in mind that the written word is all too easily misconstrued sometimes and I'm sure no slight was intended by any post on this thread. However, responding by attacking the poster isn't the way we go about it here, either.

Be polite to each other, please......

Pete

[Tim Flyer]

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned on this thread is that most modellers actually enjoy the building process and actually obtain a sense of achievement /satisfaction in finishing a model of higher quality.

The quick to put together foam planes do not have this added benefit so can in some ways be said to be lacking (or more expensive) in terms of reward for the monetary outlay.

[Erfolg]

Another CEng, the sort of engineer that does not know there way around a dishwasher repair, although recognised as an engineer in the EU.

Some of the points being made about remuneration, will almost certainly will be subject to realignment, during and after Covid. Just as the remuneration of labour in other countries. People in the building trade where I used to live would have bitten your hand, together with half your arm to some of the sums indicated. Here the charges are very high in comparison. Even in the UK there are those who do comparatively, even significantly better than others. I can only reflect, that as a engineer in Germany, comparative to a Woodworker My income would have been a healthy multiple. Remuneration does vary significantly around the world for a variety of reasons, some understandable, others apparently due to the incomprehensible.

It will be the same in the whole of the modelling trade, with constantly changing cost structures, both within the UK and world wide. At present, the change is probably very quick.

It is probably those of pre retirement age who at present will be subject to a significant change in both income and what remains as disposable. Into the future all of us will feel the change. Those who think that they can just pass on their losses,or expectations, could find resistance that will further erode their business model. With great trepidation, I see the future for many of being one of redundancy for many, failed business and so on. Us old ones lived through an era of massive government, or better seen as National debt, generated by WW2, we have Covid. The implications of just this had massive impact on the economy, what ever party was in power, for decades.

So is £200 to much, I suspect it was a price point set pre Covid, post Covid, time will tell. I do anticipate that some distributors ceasing to trade, particularly if many of the remaining MS close. I guess and it is a guess, that Internet trading will become dominant. What impact on prices this would bring, I do not know. I just see us (in the UK) becoming even more niche.

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Two posts deleted for rudeness. 

Pete B's message above refers.

Edited By David Ashby - Moderator on 23/11/2020 18:55:11

[Former Member]

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