Martin Harris - Moderator Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 Posted by Clarence Ragland on 14/01/2021 13:11:51: Snap? Common saying meaning I've done/got the same thing - from a children's card game where the aim is to shout "snap" when cards are matched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarence Ragland Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 The Ragland Technique What I'm hoping for is an aeromodelling industry representative to come to me this flying season so I can demonstrate and even train her or him how to use this method. They then could pass it on to whoever they wish. It would be a great way to drastically increase sales of RC airplanes. BTW, on the video, it was their very first ever RC flying experience. Notice how windy it is. This was at a public demonstration this club puts on every year. They might not do so this year because of the decline and Covid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Gorham_ Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 WHY is your method better than other methods? It just looks slightly different to other common techniques? Also, how does your method of standing to one side cope with a transmitter stick mode such as Mode 1 which has the two primary flight controls split over two sticks? How is your method better than a buddy box? Genuinely curious to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarence Ragland Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 I've never in my 45 plus years teaching had to train anyone using mode 1 Kinesthetic by feel, like full scale flight instructors teach, but without dual controls. Edited By Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:30:53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:07:00: The Ragland Technique What I'm hoping for is an aeromodelling industry representative to come to me this flying season so I can demonstrate and even train her or him how to use this method. They then could pass it on to whoever they wish. It would be a great way to drastically increase sales of RC airplanes. Please explain how your technique addresses the following issues that are or will limit/reduce participation: Reduction in peoples spare time Loss of flying sites due to development Increasing regulation putting people off and increasing costs Lack of interest due to competition from other activities The inevitable Covid induced economic slowdowns/recesssions that will follow the current lockdowns in coming years This should be good... Edited By MattyB on 22/01/2021 16:33:32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Gorham_ Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:30:24: I've never in my 45 plus years teaching had to train anyone using mode 1 Kinesthetic by feel, like full scale flight instructors teach, but without dual controls. Edited By Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:30:53 So why is your method better? I think there is an argument to say that a buddy box enables a trainee to build confidence more quickly as the instructor can leave them in control for longer to try and sort out any mistakes. This builds up good reactions in the pupil too. Your method might be effective, but I'm not convinced it is better than any other - just different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarence Ragland Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 22/01/2021 16:38:00: Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:30:24: I've never in my 45 plus years teaching had to train anyone using mode 1 Kinesthetic by feel, like full scale flight instructors teach, but without dual controls. Edited By Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:30:53 So why is your method better? I think there is an argument to say that a buddy box enables a trainee to build confidence more quickly as the instructor can leave them in control for longer to try and sort out any mistakes. This builds up good reactions in the pupil too. Your method might be effective, but I'm not convinced it is better than any other - just different. he RT eliminates the problems associated with buddy-box training. No control reversal problems Hours per flight session as opposed to 6-10 minutes Landing experience within 20 minutes of first ever learning experience No problem teaching in 15-20 mph winds Can train on simulator anywhere, anytime all year All students learn at a very rapid pace Can do many takeoff and landing drills ASAP Can easily teach others to use this method Extremely productive marketing tool Rapid progress from trainer to advanced aircraft Use with or without buddy-box Easy to learn The RT should be a flight training safety standard No, it's not the pass-the-box method Nor don't I hug the student Kinesthetic teaching shouldn't be so out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 22/01/2021 16:38:00: Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:30:24: I've never in my 45 plus years teaching had to train anyone using mode 1 Kinesthetic by feel, like full scale flight instructors teach, but without dual controls. So why is your method better? I think there is an argument to say that a buddy box enables a trainee to build confidence more quickly as the instructor can leave them in control for longer to try and sort out any mistakes. This builds up good reactions in the pupil too. Your method might be effective, but I'm not convinced it is better than any other - just different. Agreed. I can see it working for some people where a buddy box might not, but equally others will absolutely hate it. It's certainly not Covid secure either! TBH my issue is not with Clarence's claims around the technique so much as the ridiculous assertions being made that it can "save the hobby" and "drastically increase sales of RC airplanes". Exactly how can it do that? The problem the hobby faces is not around the quality of instruction, it's the dramatically reduced number of people actually wanting to participate and having the means and access to do so. It doesn't matter if this technique is 100x more effective than other methods if there is no beginner present there to teach. I have taught many a beginner over the years, but there is no doubt I've instructed far less recently, primarily because newcomers to the hobby are much rarer these days. Yes we can always do more to promote the hobby, but this idea that we can grow our way back the the heyday of model flying in the 60s and 70s by applying a training technique alone is simply ridiculous. It's tantamount to me claiming I will run a marathon tomorrow in under 3hrs with no training on the grounds I've just bought some nice new trainers... Edited By MattyB on 22/01/2021 17:04:52 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Gorham_ Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:48:35: Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 22/01/2021 16:38:00: Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:30:24: I've never in my 45 plus years teaching had to train anyone using mode 1 Kinesthetic by feel, like full scale flight instructors teach, but without dual controls. Edited By Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:30:53 So why is your method better? I think there is an argument to say that a buddy box enables a trainee to build confidence more quickly as the instructor can leave them in control for longer to try and sort out any mistakes. This builds up good reactions in the pupil too. Your method might be effective, but I'm not convinced it is better than any other - just different. he RT eliminates the problems associated with buddy-box training. No control reversal problems Hours per flight session as opposed to 6-10 minutes Landing experience within 20 minutes of first ever learning experience No problem teaching in 15-20 mph winds Can train on simulator anywhere, anytime all year All students learn at a very rapid pace Can do many takeoff and landing drills ASAP Can easily teach others to use this method Extremely productive marketing tool Rapid progress from trainer to advanced aircraft Use with or without buddy-box Easy to learn The RT should be a flight training safety standard No, it's not the pass-the-box method Nor don't I hug the student Kinesthetic teaching shouldn't be so out there. Control reversal is not a problem! It's part of R/C flying and a technique to learn. You might say that never teaching someone to land a model solves the landing problem! I have taught several pupils on a buddy box and we were able to fly for more than 6-10 mins per session. We could have as many 15 minute flights as they had time for. Early stage pupils tend to lose concentration and focus after 10 minutes of flying anyway, so I'm not sure how you are presenting this as any advantage and I'm not sure how a buddy system is supposed to limit flying time as against fuel tank size or flight battery capacity? It's perfectly possible to give a newcomer landing experience on a buddy box. Why do you think it isn't? Again, I taught my pupils in 15-25mph winds right from the get-go. We used a Boomerang trainer which flew well and I would say choice of model is a bigger factor than any "technique" if you want to fly in all weathers. No, you haven't convinced me. Sorry. Edited By Alan Gorham_ on 22/01/2021 17:07:26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarence Ragland Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 22/01/2021 17:06:29: Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:48:35: Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 22/01/2021 16:38:00: Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:30:24: I've never in my 45 plus years teaching had to train anyone using mode 1 Kinesthetic by feel, like full scale flight instructors teach, but without dual controls. Edited By Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:30:53 So why is your method better? I think there is an argument to say that a buddy box enables a trainee to build confidence more quickly as the instructor can leave them in control for longer to try and sort out any mistakes. This builds up good reactions in the pupil too. Your method might be effective, but I'm not convinced it is better than any other - just different. he RT eliminates the problems associated with buddy-box training. No control reversal problems Hours per flight session as opposed to 6-10 minutes Landing experience within 20 minutes of first ever learning experience No problem teaching in 15-20 mph winds Can train on simulator anywhere, anytime all year All students learn at a very rapid pace Can do many takeoff and landing drills ASAP Can easily teach others to use this method Extremely productive marketing tool Rapid progress from trainer to advanced aircraft Use with or without buddy-box Easy to learn The RT should be a flight training safety standard No, it's not the pass-the-box method Nor don't I hug the student Kinesthetic teaching shouldn't be so out there. Control reversal is not a problem! It's part of R/C flying and a technique to learn. You might say that never teaching someone to land a model solves the landing problem! I have taught several pupils on a buddy box and we were able to fly for more than 6-10 mins per session. We could have as many 15 minute flights as they had time for. Early stage pupils tend to lose concentration and focus after 10 minutes of flying anyway, so I'm not sure how you are presenting this as any advantage and I'm not sure how a buddy system is supposed to limit flying time as against fuel tank size or flight battery capacity? It's perfectly possible to give a newcomer landing experience on a buddy box. Why do you think it isn't? Again, I taught my pupils in 15-25mph winds right from the get-go. We used a Boomerang trainer which flew well and I would say choice of model is a bigger factor than any "technique" if you want to fly in all weathers. No, you haven't convinced me. Sorry. Edited By Alan Gorham_ on 22/01/2021 17:07:26 Never said it was not possible to give landing instruction using a buddy-box. What I can do is have everyone land on their very first ever flying experience. Within a half dozen landing drills, the first time student will be able to land on his own without breaking anything. As opposed to my critics, I used to use a buddy-box many years ago, so I can compare the two methods. I am confident that there are others reading these threads, so it doesn't really matter if you're convinced or not. It should be nice to know that there could possibly be an improvement over traditional methods. I'm at a disadvantage since we are over 4000 miles apart, but sooner or later, someone will demand a demand a "show me". That is why I keep responding. Landing experience within 20 minutes of first ever learning experience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Gorham_ Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 Again, I have given pupils an attempt at landing on their first ever buddy box attempt and so have club mates, so why is your method better? Most people who do respond to you are asking for reasons why your method is better and you aren't explaining why. If it is better then explain and we will all be educated. I have also taught people without using a buddy box which why I have a strong preference for the box. I can also speak from experience. I would also love to know if there is an improvement over traditional methods, but you won't tell us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarence Ragland Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 Like I've said several times, I used the buddy-box and will never go back. I know the difference. I have everyone, not just some, take off and land on their very first ever RC flight lesson. Most are able to fly safely on their own within a couple of hours, more or less. That I, nor anyone else could do that using the buddy-box. This is 50 years in the hobby talking. I ran a hobby shop and using this method is how I kept my doors open for over 10 years. One 10 minute test flight usually made the sale. Then that customer told someone else how easy learning how to fly RC airplanes is and he told someone else. Many of those I trained quickly trained others using my method. Many had their own property and never joined a club, as they didn't have to, nor many never wanted to. If that doesn't convince you, there is nothing more I can ad that will. What would it take to convince you? Not that it matters. That is why I had problems with club members sending beginners to me. If someone may want to learn a method that is faster, easier, safer and more productive, such as a hobby shop owner, then he might want to learn this method, but like yourself, if you are satisfied with using the buddy-box, then so be it. To each his own, it's everyone's choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Kremen Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 Perhaps the professional instructors/teachers/lecturers among us will confirm, but I have always understood that maximum concentration can only be maintained for comparatively short periods of time. This time will vary according to age. After this period, intense attention and mental focus wanders, not what is required when carrying out any potentially safety critical activity e.g. driving a car, flying a plane - full or model size! If people of any age choose not to take up model flying in the numbers of previous years, 'we' established participants are not going to be able force or make them do so against their will. Others on this and the other thread have made all the valid reasons why the hobby is where it is. Enjoy it, if we get a few new recruits great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarence Ragland Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 Posted by Capt Kremen on 22/01/2021 18:56:04: Perhaps the professional instructors/teachers/lecturers among us will confirm, but I have always understood that maximum concentration can only be maintained for comparatively short periods of time. This time will vary according to age. After this period, intense attention and mental focus wanders, not what is required when carrying out any potentially safety critical activity e.g. driving a car, flying a plane - full or model size! If people of any age choose not to take up model flying in the numbers of previous years, 'we' established participants are not going to be able force or make them do so against their will. Others on this and the other thread have made all the valid reasons why the hobby is where it is. Enjoy it, if we get a few new recruits great. I had the same experience using the buddy-box for training. When I switched to my method, all of my students, young, old, men and women could fly for a couple of hours or more. What I do is trim out my trainer (LT-40) which has a 14 oz fuel tank, basically fly on it's own. A slight move, right, back to center, left to correct once the turn is finished and back to center. All of those I've trained are able to mentally pace themselves, which is why they don't have to concentrate that much. Sometimes I have my students to not look at the plane in the air, but focus on their thumb on top of the aileron/elevator stick. Usually around 3 minutes, more or less. I can feel them relax and along the way of their lesson, I will engage in conversation about anything and everything and only give them a movement suggestion when necessary. I've had some students fly for 4 hours in one day, with refueling breaks in between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eflightray Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 I don't post inhere very often, (little to add to the already experienced posters), but I feel many of the flying problems beginners have is down to the model and the teacher. Often the wrong model, and teachers who are set in their old ways I started into RC with single channel, having already flown free flight, which already helps considerably with how to trim a model, but that's rather irrelevant to todays first timers who either want a scale, possibly fast jet, or even down to poor model recommendations by experienced filers who haven't flown many modern trainer for years. Many clubs will only have IC powered club trainers, (flying bricks after all the repairs), or recommend IC power to start with, which can be very intimidating. Plus I'm sure there are still plenty of club member how who consider electric power 'toys', and a waste of time. Even the cheapest simple electric 'toy' planes can be a good starting model for gaining stick and control experience. I doubt many club members would recommend one. There are now many electric model fitted with gyro type stability that allows a total beginner to get experience and minimise crashes, and isn't that the best staring point for a beginner. If a club wants to increase it's club membership, or a forum its membership, or for someone to just teach one-to-one any local people, (kids to pensioners), it needs to consider all types of suitable training type models and power systems, and think a little more modern, not just, - 'we have always done it this way'/ 'it was good enough for me'. Ray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Davis Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:30:24: I've never in my 45 plus years teaching had to train anyone using mode 1 Kinesthetic by feel, like full scale flight instructors teach, but without dual controls. Edited By Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:30:53 You'd have a few problems here in France mate! 85% of them are Mode 1! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarence Ragland Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 Posted by David Davis on 22/01/2021 19:57:41: Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:30:24: I've never in my 45 plus years teaching had to train anyone using mode 1 Kinesthetic by feel, like full scale flight instructors teach, but without dual controls. Edited By Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:30:53 You'd have a few problems here in France mate! 85% of them are Mode 1! I've practiced on my simulator using my method on mode 1, just out of curiosity. I don't think I would have any problem teaching this way. There will be a slight adjustment, but I think I can handle it. There are billions of people in the world, so I don't think I would have to worry about that. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingcoax Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 In the club when i was learning, the vast majority used MODE 1. I still use mode 1 although i can if needed use mode 2. I dont know if this is down to being ambidextrous or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarence Ragland Posted January 23, 2021 Author Share Posted January 23, 2021 I practiced extensively flying mode1 on my simulator and got it down pretty good. But since no one in my area flies mode1, I've never had the opportunity to do so on models. I may just do so when I go out to my flying field this coming flying season. All I do is give hands-on promoting and flight training. So if anyone comes to me wanting to learn on mode1, I'll be ready. I hope beginners and industry members, including hobby shop owners are following these threads. Someone from your side of the pond said he might travel the 4000 plus miles so I can demonstrate and teach him my method. If so, he could really help the local hobby shops, distributors and manufacturers increase sales. Gotta think big. lol https://www.sussex-model-centre.co.uk/ Edited By Clarence Ragland on 23/01/2021 12:56:50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 As has already being pointed out the success of the hobby in terms of membership and model shop sales is not due to the standard of instruction available through clubs, or even the increased chances of success available through the excellent training aeroplanes equipped with stabilising technology. There are many reasons for the reduction in the numbers of model flyers and a slight tweak in the training methods as a method of saving the hobby is a bold claim indeed. It's especially bold when some of the aspects being proposed - simulators in shops for instance - have already been in use here for many years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jones 21 Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 Posted by leccyflyer on 23/01/2021 12:55:57: As has already being pointed out the success of the hobby in terms of membership and model shop sales is not due to the standard of instruction available through clubs, or even the increased chances of success available through the excellent training aeroplanes equipped with stabilising technology. This is a partial reason, success in learning to fly creates the desire to do more particularly in older newcomers, it is a different problem with youngsters. The hobby needs engagement and success across multiple fronts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarence Ragland Posted January 23, 2021 Author Share Posted January 23, 2021 Posted by leccyflyer on 23/01/2021 12:55:57: As has already being pointed out the success of the hobby in terms of membership and model shop sales is not due to the standard of instruction available through clubs, or even the increased chances of success available through the excellent training aeroplanes equipped with stabilising technology. There are many reasons for the reduction in the numbers of model flyers and a slight tweak in the training methods as a method of saving the hobby is a bold claim indeed. It's especially bold when some of the aspects being proposed - simulators in shops for instance - have already been in use here for many years. Not just simulators in shops, but actual flight promoters in the shops to teach customers to fly in those shops. I've already proven the concept when I ran a hobby shop some years ago. I've explained this in previous posts. Most of my customers were just looking around and showed little to no interest in RC airplanes. That is until I gave them a little taste of the hobby on my in-store simulator and then actual flight instruction on our flying field several miles away. So, my promotion method is not just theory, but it actually works. I'll be 74 this year and running out of gas, which is why I'm so persistent attempting to pass this promotion technique on to others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 Please fix the quote tags in your post to separate your posted words from that of other posters. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarence Ragland Posted January 23, 2021 Author Share Posted January 23, 2021 Sorry, I wondered about that, my bad. I clicked Quote and that's what happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil McCavity Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 I at least, wish you the very best of luck Clarence, anyone willing to actually put their time and effort into promoting the hobby has my support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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