Canards without ailerons?

[Sonofpincher]

I like experimenting, and have a small polyhedral wing about ,30" span, and would like to try a Canard layout. Would a conventional rudder on the Canard foreplane arranged, of course to push left or right by the servo, turn the model without ailerons on the mainplane in the same way that a rudder/elevator setup does?  Also, would a foreplane Canard turn if the whole assembly was able to tilt right or left, as well as up and down?

[PatMc]

Not sure what you mean by 

1 hour ago, Sonofpincher said:

 Would a conventional rudder on the Canard foreplane ...

but a rudder behind the wings worked fine for Orville & Wilbur. ? 

Edited October 4, 2021 by PatMc

[J D 8]

                 Can not see how a tilting canard would have much effect unless you tilt it far enough to become a rudder.

        A rudder elevator polyhedral type needs a yawing action to effect a turn, a rudder on the nose will do much the same as one on the tail.

             Another option could be a tip dragger plate at the end of each wing.

I learned to fly microlights on a canard type with with wing tip dragger plates. When turning only the plate on the way you are turning deploys. System worked well.

[Sonofpincher]

Sorry if I was not clear enough - I considered either a rudder mounted ON the Canard foreplane, with some careful arrangement of the control horns so that vertical movement of the Canard elevator didn't clash with rudder control OR perhaps a conventionally mounted rudder In front or just behind the Canard.

Everything I've read about Canard designs showed a problem with yaw control because vertical rudder surfaces were often mounted on the main wingtips, or well back - so why shouldn't the rudder control be up the front? Someone flew a backwards flying Tomboy - so perhaps it does work - but I think his used ailerons?

[MattyB]

Seems like it has been tried before by a select few (https://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/aerodynamics-76/3336699-rudder-infront-canard-design-2.html), but since you still need to carry significant vertical fin area behind the CG anyway for stability those would still seem to be better placed to induce yaw than up front. Perhaps this why the vast majority of canards do have ailerons, though John Woodfield does have a very nice large canard floater....

 

 

Ultimately I suspect whilst such a config might be made to fly, it would be very draggy and probably have some "interesting" handling characteristics!

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by MattyB

[Sonofpincher]

Must have pressed the wrong button - didn't mean to repeat! 

Thanks MattyB for that link, there was some good stuff there. I'm going to start experimenting -- when the current project - VMC Sopwith Triplane rc conversion - is finished! Forums are always helpful.

 

[Frank Skilbeck]

If you are experimenting, you could try a V-canard (V-tail at the front) for elevator/rudder control, not at a clue how effective it would be, but the rudder control would also introduce roll in the correct direction as well.

[Denis Watkins]

Have a look at the Long EZ, for clues to your experiments,

this is an established flyer in model form, from the full sized homebuild aircraft.

[Sonofpincher]

Might try that Canard V-tail at the front idea - thanks

 

[Martin Dance 1]

Always been fascinated by the canard layout. Many years ago I did an own design one having dredged up as much info as I could in those pre-Google days. Built it took it to the field. Would not take off, yes the elevators were operating in the correct sense!. Asked a friend to try a hand launch, good old heave, it hit the ground just in front of his feet, a brick wouldn't  have hit the ground quicker! So I abandoned that attempt. A few years later I came across the Gannet a design published in Radio Control Modeler, a US magazine. I bought the plan and built the model. First attempted flight no lift off. At about the same time I met another modeller with some experience of canards who pointed out the you need some 5 degrees of positive incidence on the fore plane. Modified the model and it flew, rather well actually. Well you know that canards are supposed to be impossible to stall? Don't believe it! Also don 't believe they cannot spin, Oh yes they can! Mine did a wonderful slow flat spin landing on its undercarriage ready for re-fuelling and the next flight. 

One thought does cross my mind, magnet steering free flight gliders are 'steered' by a vane, controlled by a magnet located on the nose of the model, the model is otherwise conventional.

[Robin Colbourne]

Paul Macready's Gossamer Condor and Gossamer Albatross which won two of the Kramer prizes for man-powered aircraft, both used canards that could tilt as well as pitch.  This enabled them to turn without having to bank the whole airframe, which is best avoided when you have a 96ft wing 20ft off the ground!



I made a rubber powered canard for indoor flying.  It was 24" span with the wing with tip fins and canard all from 1/32" sheet with ribs beneath to hold the camber. A 3/4" diameter tubular fuselage rolled from 1/32 balsa contained the rubber motor, driving a North Pacific Sleek Streak prop at the back.  It flew pretty well, but every so often the canard would cause it to pitch up, and with insufficient thrust to climb at that angle, the thing would just slide backwards to a landing in reverse.

 

The V-tail at the front has an added benefit as the V makes it less likely to catch a canard tip upon landing.
 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Robin Colbourne

[Sonofpincher]

Yes, watched that Gossamer pedal-powered flight also, and it did make me wonder if a tilting foreplane would use its lift to induce a turn. Started to build something simple this afternoon!