First taste of the sky

[toto]

Haven't located the Tachometer as yet ...... I'm sure I have one. I'll continue the search tomorrow night amongst other duties. It will be somewhere obvious.

 

Otherwise .... everything is ready for another days flying ( Sunday ). 

 

You never know .... maybe this weekend ... with my new found power .... I'll be doing the take off's myself .... if so ... I'm back where I left off before and closer to actually progressing towards approaches .... and ..... landings .... that would be something.

 

Toto

Edited November 9, 2023 by toto

[Peter Jenkins]

Well done Toto.

[toto]

Thank you Sir

 

The good thing with regards to definite progress is the model is fit for purpose .... or at least that should be confirmed this weekend after being re-maidened under cover of it's new.... more appropriate setup.

 

It was flying well .... just under powered .... . No longer.

 

I'm buzzing and can't wait to get it in the air.

 

Toto

[Philip Lewis 3]

13 hours ago, Cuban8 said:

I forgot to mention that it would be very interesting to have an idea of what RPMs at full chat your 12x8, 900Kv and 4S system is.

 

Why? What would you do with that information? I think this is an IC thing and irrelevant to an electric set up.

 

I've certainly measured RPM but not changed anything because of it. 

 

The current set up looks about perfect to me, and as Peter says, will be less in the air.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Philip Lewis 3

[leccyflyer]

6 hours ago, Philip Lewis 3 said:

Why? What would you do with that information? I think this is an IC thing and irrelevant to an electric set up.

 

I've certainly measured RPM but not changed anything because of it. 

 

The current set up looks about perfect to me, and as Peter says, will be less in the air.

RPM is a pretty important part of what makes the aeroplane go, generating the thrust which drives it forward, irrespective of whether the propeller is being turned by an electric motor or an internal combustion engine.

 

In the case of an electric set-up, in lieu of an actual thrust measurement, we measure current draw and watts to give an indication of the power generated. However, as Toto has been informed in this thread, all propellers are not equal and the inefficiencies of the Master Airscrew IC paint stirrers are quite apparent, when compared to the more efficient, optimised APC-E props. At face value the higher current draw of an inefficient propeller compared to an APC-E could easily lead one to believe that one was getting more power out, due to that higher current draw, but measurement of the RPM of the prop would put that into perspective and reveal more revs per buck in the more efficient case.

[toto]

Interesting stuff. 

 

So there is science behind the preference for the APC props.

 

It's all down to time at the moment but I will make a point of taking the readings on both prop types. If there is a sufficient enough difference, it could effect the way I buy future props. I did not really appreciate such subtleties when purchasing in the first place but worth looking into.

 

Many thanks

 

Toto

[Peter Jenkins]

No one who takes their flying seriously uses Master Airscrew props.  APC are the most efficient props made  - fact.  APC make props for electric use ending with an E (for electric) or WE (wide electric).  APC also make IC props that are more robust and much heavier than the electric equivalent.  The IC props have to withstand the stresses of being used to start IC engines with chicken sticks and the high impulse forces imposed by IC engines when they fire.  Both of these are absent in electric flight.

 

You can use an IC prop with an electric motor but NEVER use an electric prop on an IC engine.

[toto]

I have about 3 Master Airscrew props. Most others are APC and going by these comments ..... so will future purchases be. However, rather than consigning the former to the bin, there are surely of use until unserviceable as a option. 

 

As they bite the dust ... one by one ......they will be replaced by APC props. 

 

Toto

Edited November 10, 2023 by toto

[David Davis 2]

2 minutes ago, toto said:

I have about 3 Master Airscrew props. Most others are APC and going by these comments ..... so will future purchases be. However, rather than consigning the former to the bin, there are surely of use until unserviceable as a option. 

 

As they bite the dust ... one by one ......they will be replaced by APC props. 

 

Toto

 

Quite so Toto. I always buy APC props having been convinced of their superiority by the cognoscenti but I also have several Master Airscrew paddles which I use on larger models. I have never done a side by side comparison of the two makes but if a Master Airscrew will allow one of my models to take off, to fly about and to perform a few aerobatics, I'm happy. At your stage of the learning curve you are are not looking for optimum performance so continue using your Master Airscrews as you suggest.

[leccyflyer]

16 minutes ago, toto said:

I have about 3 Master Airscrew props. Most others are APC and going by these comments ..... so will future purchases be. However, rather than consigning the former to the bin, there are surely of use until unserviceable as a option. 

 

As they bite the dust ... one by one ......they will be replaced by APC props. 

 

Toto

Don't entirely discount Master Airscrew props - their electric props are really quite good, especially the wooden ones, which are a thing of beauty and I have several in use. The MA electric series, with wide blades and a nicely undercambered blade profile does suit some aeroplanes very well. 

[leccyflyer]

30 minutes ago, Peter Jenkins said:

No one who takes their flying seriously uses Master Airscrew props.  APC are the most efficient props made  - fact.  APC make props for electric use ending with an E (for electric) or WE (wide electric).  APC also make IC props that are more robust and much heavier than the electric equivalent.  The IC props have to withstand the stresses of being used to start IC engines with chicken sticks and the high impulse forces imposed by IC engines when they fire.  Both of these are absent in electric flight.

 

You can use an IC prop with an electric motor but NEVER use an electric prop on an IC engine.

Graupner Speed props and Aeronaut props are every bit as good as APC-E props. A couple of disadvantages with APC-E props, good as they are, may be seen in their inherently brittle nature-they break much more easily in an impact with the ground than some other props and in their extremely sharp trailing edges. The latter are dangerously sharp and I'll live with the slight loss of efficiency in a couple of swipes with a piece of fine sandpaper along that trailing edge to reduce the risk of an accidental cut in normal operation. I'm not talking about inserting a digit into a rotating prop, just general handling where a brand new APC-E can give you a painful "paper cut" just handling that razor sharp trailing edge.

[Cuban8]

9 hours ago, Philip Lewis 3 said:

Why? What would you do with that information? I think this is an IC thing and irrelevant to an electric set up.

 

I've certainly measured RPM but not changed anything because of it. 

 

The current set up looks about perfect to me, and as Peter says, will be less in the air.

Propeller efficiency comparison........Kv check............quick assessment of deterioration in the system over time........... to name but three. Hardly irrelevant to an electric set up.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Cuban8

[GrumpyGnome]

2 hours ago, Peter Jenkins said:

No one who takes their flying seriously uses Master Airscrew props. 

 

Best not tell my Valiant that's happily been flying around on an MA proo for 300+ flights....

 

Or is it me not taking it too seriously. But I do fly for fun, and it performs well enough fpr my purposes.

[Nigel R]

I have a large pile of (old, but perfectly viable) Graupner Super Nylon grey IC props.

 

Guess what I use on my small electrics (and on a few IC setups, too)...

 

[GrumpyGnome]

I have some of those too. In act, I've got all sorts and just grab one of the right size, for correct power type.............. like most (I suspect) people, I don't need 'best' performance.... 

 

As toto is just learning, I suspect his existing MA props will be fine.

 

 

[Cuban8]

1 minute ago, GrumpyGnome said:

I have some of those too. In act, I've got all sorts and just grab one of the right size, for correct power type.............. like most (I suspect) people, I don't need 'best' performance.... 

 

As toto is just learning, I suspect his existing MA props will be fine.

 

 

True - OK, they're not the very best for efficiency but where durability might be a more important factor, Master props will do a job of work.

[leccyflyer]

2 hours ago, Nigel R said:

I have a large pile of (old, but perfectly viable) Graupner Super Nylon grey IC props.

 

Guess what I use on my small electrics (and on a few IC setups, too)...

 

Yep, I certainly make use of those Graupner Super Nylon props on a few off my smaller electric models as well. They are great for belly landers.

[leccyflyer]

1 hour ago, Cuban8 said:

True - OK, they're not the very best for efficiency but where durability might be a more important factor, Master props will do a job of work.

Like many props with square tips they are noisier and excessive prop noise is undesirable. I note that my Graupner Speed props are often whisper quiet in comparison.

[toto]

I was meant to be flying on Sunday but now it has been brought forward to tomorrow as the weather is looking good. You never know .... I could be in the shed Saturday night furiously charging batteries for Sunday as well. 

 

Things are on the up. At this rate I could be flying for Easyjet this time next year ....

 

Cheers

 

Toto

[leccyflyer]

That's good - both days look very flyable on the forecast, so make the most of it.

 

If you altered your ambitions from Easyjet to Ryanair you'd widen the choice of clubs available to you and even be able to include ours up near Aberdeen, or maybe a couple in the Lake District as well.

[toto]

Hi ..... great day ...... sun was out ... a little chilly but not too bad. 

 

Club hit getting cleared out so I baled in between flights to help out. Met a load of other members today and had a good blether 

 

The Domino was re-maidened with the 800 kv motor. An instant difference realised right away. Plenty power as she tore down the runway and into the air climbing sweetly to a working height.

 

4 flights in total ....... two at around 9 to 10 minutes off separate batteries and two 5 minute flights off the one battery ..... 30 % to spare off the two flight battery and 65 % to spare on the two single flight batteries so good flying times .

 

Flew a bit better personally and feel that I'm almost back to where I was. So improvement should be on  the cards going forward. All in all ..... a great day. 

 

More later ..... domestic emergency calls

 

Toto

[toto]

So ..... no flying tomorrow ..... weather looking fine but no instructor availability ..... no issue.

 

Looks like next weekend. However some good learning points taken away from today's experience and things I need to concentrate on. ..... flying nearside circuit legs Waymo close to the pilot stance. That's a no no . Again down to special awareness and getting that virtual flying circuit space ingrained into my head.

 

So far ... this has been a major stumbling block for me at both my flying clubs ..... obviously some kind of mental thing. 

 

I need to imagine pushing the whole flying circuit out further away from me. .... if you get what I mean. 

 

I done a couple of attempts at a procedural turn. Now ..... I'm going to look back at the written notes I'd been given before as the way I was instructed today ( whilst more sensible ) was different I think from what I was taught before. ...... before I go casting that comment in stone ..... let me consult the diagram that I have.

 

Regardlessly ..... I will adopt whichever method I have to. It's all about the direction you are heading in ( away from the pits ) that you are in when you complete the turn. 

 

Always,homework ..... always learning..... 

 

Toto

 

[Peter Jenkins]

Toto, have you read the BMFA Flying Training Manual - it's called "A Flying Start" and is a series of lessons to go from 1st flight to solo.  It is meant as an aid to instructors and students so that you don't end up in the situation you now find yourself.  At the very least it represents the Gold Standard for how to fly a model aircraft.  Guidance to jnstructors is also included.  Well worth a read and well worth asking your instructors if they use it. 

 

Well worth a read.  Link - https://britishmfa.sharepoint.com/sites/public/Achievement Scheme Documents/Forms/AllItems.aspx?id=%2Fsites%2Fpublic%2FAchievement Scheme Documents%2FAchievement Scheme Documents%2FA Flying Start.pdf&parent=%2Fsites%2Fpublic%2FAchievement Scheme Documents%2FAchievement Scheme Documents&p=true&ga=1

Edited November 11, 2023 by Peter Jenkins

[GrumpyGnome]

I'd say...... don't over-analyse, don't over-think...... practice will get you to where you need to be......... you just need to trust your instructor, do what he/she/they say, and Robert will soon be your mother's live in lover.

[Andy Gates]

Glad you had some more flying time today Toto.

 

The "Flying Start" comment is a good one.

 

Regarding flying too close in, when no one is flying and all is clear, walk out onto the strip and stand in the middle of it. Then look up the runway and notice any features which line up with your view. Now do the same in the other direction. You can now use those visual clues to help you line up with the centre of the runway as you come out of your turns. Please, do not get fixated on being in exactly in the right place. Once you get familiar with flying, you will not need the clues any more.

 

Today was a good day for me too, as one of my students went solo - first time off buddy lead. He had 2 successful flights like that and then we went back to buddy for some aerobatics, having been overflown by a full size Yak doing aerobatics in the sunshine. I will let you imagine his smile - suspect it may still be on his face tomorrow. However he did comment on how tired he felt afterwards.

 

That is what you have coming so keep at it.