Biggles' Mess

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Terence Lynock on 05/01/2011 12:43:56:

Call me hard hearted if thou must but I like this............

 

 

Edited By Terence Lynock on 05/01/2011 12:44:23

 LOL

 

I agree - its the sort of thing you feel guilty laughing at - but it funny!

 

BEB

[Ross Clarkson]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 05/01/2011 12:52:20:

Guys, clearly I've touched a nerve - which was honestly not my intention. I certainly don't advocate breaking the law and agree that speeding is dangerous and anti-social.

 

My only point, which I stand by, was that in my view the cost of this prosecution is not in the public interest. The guy plans to appeal -more expense. The "legal expert's" view on the BBC news was that if he cites the 2005 case, which was dismissed, he will probably be aquited and the whole thing will have been for nothing. There must be a better way surely. If needed then change the law - but don't bring a prosecution under a law which has already prooved unsuccessful.

 

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 05/01/2011 12:53:53

 

It may be "Not in the public interest", but when that person causes someone else to die or be seriously injured as a result of his driving, does it then become "In the public interest"?

 

I deleted my post because i try not to get involved in these discussions, because yes, "It does touch a nerve" because the general public have no idea what the Police actually have to deal with.

 

The fact of the matter is 100%, if you aren't speeding or comitting a driving offence, then those cameras and speed traps won't make a penny!!!!

Simple.

 

 

[Pete B]

Sorry, BEB, this case is fully justified - and if the conviction isn't upheld at the Appeal Court, then we might as well all give up any hope of protection from the law in future, because anyone will be able to freely interfere with the functions of the police whenever it suits them.

 

I don't know of the 2005 case. If it did not go to the Appeal Court, then the verdict would not have resulted in a 'stated case' which would lend greater weight to this appeal, although not conclusively. Judges have been known to reverse earlier decisions, so an acquittal is by no means certain. I would suspect that there may be different circumstances with the earlier case.

 

I've just watched the BBC interview of this chap and I get the impression he is either being rather economical with his version of events or he is an idiot. Whatever, his reasoning is totally flawed. 

 

"I was only trying to achieve the same ends as the police" - "a speed trap a 'hazard' " - absolute rubbish - he's obviously got a bee in his bonnet about the police and his only intention was to protect potential offenders from the consequences, no more, no less. That, to me, is, in effect, condoning their behaviour.

 

I must say that I am astonished by the logic of those arguing that he was contributing to road safety by getting people to slow down......... On what planet are these people???

 

I'm losing good modelling time here(), so I'll leave you with this in respect of the decision to prosecute for 'minor' cases. How many of us choose to disobey the law when it suits us? What about the mother or father, with the children in the car, who decides to ignore traffic laws, such as speeding or parking, when it suits them? It sends a message to the children that it is acceptable to be selective about which laws to obey and which to ignore. Where do you draw the line? I'm a bit short of cash, so let's take the pushchair and go and nick some food from the supermarket?

 

There's the old phrase, 'Look after the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves'. You can apply that analogy to the law, too. If many more of us had bothered to bring up our children to respect the law,  society wouldn't now be in the mess it finds itself.

 

Rant switch off..........

Pete

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Fair point Ross. Can't disagree with that  a

 

And Pete I agree with 90% of what you say - particularly about how kids are brought up and I repeat, I'm not advocating breaking the law - mearly expressing my view about where limited court resources might be better spent.

 

BEB

 

Edited on seeing Pete's post after posting!

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 05/01/2011 14:02:41

[Terence Lynock]

I think you have to bring kids up within the law these days and the kids know it, if I got caught playing football in the street I got a wap around the ear from the local copper, you cant do that no more, if I was late for school twice in one week I got caned, you cant do that no more.

If I didnt get my homework in on time I got my butt wacked with a PT shoe, you cant do that no more, the law has stopped all kinds of corporal punishment in schools and in the home under the child abuse banner, I think we can all agree that at some time getting a wallop was justified and we have all collected a few when we were kids.

There is child abuse and there is corrective punishment and there is a world of difference between the two only problem is nobody can decide where one ends and the other begins.

When I (mistakenly) went to a Catholic school I just carried on where I had left off at the last one but got a big surprise, much stricter and zero tolerance, I was only there two months before we came to an agreement, if I left they wouldnt throw me out, it was all because me and my mate Thomas had a competition - I got caned 22 times in one month!

[Pete B]

I do understand your point, BEB, and I agree with you. It can be very difficult to understand the rationale applied by public bodies, sometimes.............

 

Just out of interest, I've found the report of the 2005 case:

 

DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS v GLENDINNING (2005)

DC (Scott Baker LJ, Owen J) 13/10/2005  

CRIMINAL LAW - POLICE - ROAD TRAFFIC

OBSTRUCTION OF POLICE : SPEEDING : WARNING MOTORISTS OF SPEED TRAPS : WARNING DRIVERS : ACTUS REUS OF OFFENCE

Where an individual gave a warning to motorists of the presence of a police speed trap, it was necessary for the prosecution to prove that those warned were either exceeding the legal speed limit or were likely to do so at the location of the speed trap for the individual to commit an offence of obstructing a police constable in the execution of his duty.


The appellant appealed by way of case stated against a decision of the Crown court that the respondent (G) had no case to answer to a charge of obstructing a police constable in the execution of his duty. Police constables had established a speed trap on a lay-by of a dual carriageway. The constables observed G making a slow-down signal with his hand to drivers behind him. G was subsequently convicted in the magistrates' court of obstructing a police constable in the execution of his duty. G successfully appealed his conviction to the Crown court, which held that the video evidence showed that none of the drivers were travelling in excess of the speed limit and that they had not reacted to G's signals by slowing down. Accordingly the Crown court held that G had no case to answer. The issue was whether, for there to be an obstruction of a police constable in the execution of his duty by warning others of the presence of a speed trap, it was necessary for the prosecution to prove that those warned were either exceeding the legal speed limit or were likely to do so at the location of the speed trap.

HELD: The actus reus of the offence could only be established where the prosecuting authority proved that those warned were either exceeding the legal speed limit or were likely to do so at the location of the speed trap. On the facts of the instant case it was clear that there was no actual obstruction by G, Bastable v Little (1907) 1 KB 59, Betts v Stevens (1910) 1 KB 1, Green v Moore (1982) 126 SJ 79 considered.

Appeal dismissed.

Hmmm, seems that the judges didn't like speed traps, either.........

This present case will very much depend on whether the prosecution can prove drivers reacted to the warning. If it is thrown out, it's another example of authority being undermined, this time by the judiciary, and Joe Public will be just a little bit less protected in future. 

 

Go on, celebrate, you lucky anarchists.............

Pete

[r6dan]

The system is an Ass if they think doing that chap for flashing is right!

You lot know I ride a bike so you can guess  my views on speeding!!! in the dry I reckon I could get from 0 to 70 mph and back to 0 in the official stopping distance,with time to spare.

The speed limits were set in the times of morris 1000`s with drums all around and ye-oldy cross ply tires,the government needs to get a grip.In15 years of riding I can only think of of 2  accidents I know of out of the dozens of riders I know that were caused by speeding, all the rest were car drivers,pulling out,being on the wrong side of the road or just not seeing the bike coming or mud or gravel in an unavoidable place on a bend.

Edited By r6dan on 05/01/2011 15:10:42

[Ultymate]

Being out of work Dan you could get a job shovelling up the corpses of dead motorcyclists who thought along the same lines as you on the roads of North Wales.They come over here from the likes of Manchester, Merseyside and the Midlands and preform their lemming like antics every spring and summer leaving our roadsides littered with makeshift shrines. 

[r6dan]

You know what Ultymate you are dead right,lots of guys head out from the cities in the spring having not ridden for a couple of months thinking they are some moto gp star and kill themselves,it happens up here in Northumberland too,I see it every year,the worst offenders are middle aged men with lots of spare cash who passed the bike test 30 years ago on a fizzy and with said cash go out and buy a sports bike that will do the better part of 200 mph and 0-60 in 3 seconds,think they can handle them and can`t! 

Yes I ride fast and so do my mates,but only when its safe to do so,we never crocc solid lines,don`t cut people up,don`t overtake in silly places and try not to race(too much) 

 

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Agreed Ulty! I have family in Mold and Bala so I travel the road over the Llandegla Moors to Bala a fair bit - you do see some absolutely barmy tatics by some bike riders! And I say that as an ex-biker! Overtaking well on the other side of the road when there is no possibility that they can know its clear - and no escape route if it all goes pear shaped other than into the oncoming car or the stone wall - take your pick!

 

BEB

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Wow Pete - I bet that's a first! A full legal ruling - I don't think we've had one of them on here before!

 

I'm very impressed!

 

BEB

[Klippy]

I remember  those days Terence! And if the local Bobby gave you a clip, you didn't dare tell your folks, because you got another one, you must have deserved it! You didn't go to school in Torquay did you? We had a maths master there who used a plimsole! He used to go outside into the corridor in order to get a better run up!

[Ross Clarkson]

Posted by r6dan on 05/01/2011 15:07:46:

The system is an Ass if they think doing that chap for flashing is right!

You lot know I ride a bike so you can guess  my views on speeding!!! in the dry I reckon I could get from 0 to 70 mph and back to 0 in the official stopping distance,with time to spare.

The speed limits were set in the times of morris 1000`s with drums all around and ye-oldy cross ply tires,the government needs to get a grip.In15 years of riding I can only think of of 2  accidents I know of out of the dozens of riders I know that were caused by speeding, all the rest were car drivers,pulling out,being on the wrong side of the road or just not seeing the bike coming or mud or gravel in an unavoidable place on a bend.

Edited By r6dan on 05/01/2011 15:10:42

 

Did you know the 2 i gave mouth to mouth too, even though i knew they were clearly dead (Dont ask why, the taste wasn't nice!!) but as people were watching and as a Policeman i was seen to have to do something!!!!???

Both, purely down to speed and losing against a tree!!! 

 

I can't believe in this day and age, people still think speeding doesnt kill people.

 

Unbelievable.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I went to a Catholic school - similarly strict! But I was a "good boy" and was only caned once! I remember the occassion vividly. 

 

I was called into the deputy head's office. He said that what I had done was disgraceful and I should be ashamed of myself. I'd let myself and the school down. I was to go immediately to Miss Lewises classroom and apologise to her.

 

I didn't have the faintest idea what he was on about! I made the mistake of saying so! He immediately retorted with "You know what I'm refering to" - I honestly didn't!

 

So, I went to Miss Lewises classroom and said words to the effect - "I'm very sorry if I have upset or offended you in any way - but I've no idea how!" She took me back to the deputy head - I waited outside while she spoke to him. "Ah well", I thought, "obviously some sort of mix up and she's explaining that she didn't mean me" How wrong can one person be?

 

She left the office and told me to go in - where the deputy head told me that he was going to give me 6 strokes of the cane for the offence in question. He was going to,...but now as I've added being a lair and a smart-alec to my list of accomplishments - it would be 12!

 

I still to this day I still don't know what I was supposed to have done! I hope it was worth it!

 

BEB

[Pete B]

Thanks, BEB, but they are generally much too tedious for a forum such as this...........

 

Looking closer at the facts of each case, I think that the current situation may be treated a little differently as, IMHO, there is a greater degree of 'mens rea' exhibited by flashing several vehicles, rather than a possibly unnoticed 'slow down' signal to following vehicles.

I think it will be established that he showed intent to be obstructive on several occasions and that might be his downfall.

 

Just out of interest, I found the judgement here, which seems to be a forum to assist motorists who feel they have been unfairly treated!

 

Responding to Dan, I can't blame you for feeling as you do. Being that much younger than most of us, you still have that personal invincibility we all possessed at your age, and which only diminishes as a result of life's experiences. I sincerely hope you survive to enjoy the wisdom of age, mate.........

 

In a ten year period in the 80's, I photographed well over 200 fatal or potentially fatal accidents which tends to bring home the waste of life on the roads. Many of these involved motorcyclists. A good proportion of those were middle-aged guys, as Dan mentioned, and the low mileage on many of the bikes was very telling. I remember one with 7 miles on the clock, the rider having just picked it up from the dealer...........

 

The other thing was, if you think you're safer in a car, I never saw a tree lose the argument. They won every time, except for just one occasion when the tree was uprooted, making it a draw...........

 

Be very careful out there - and let's get back to something lighter!

 

Pete   

[001]

I think you will find that many, if not most of the 'innocent' motorcyclists were approaching junctions at an excessive speed when the car driver 'pulled out in front of them'.

Or, in respect of collisions and falling off, generally,  not knowing their own limitations in respect of skill. And not applying basic principles of observation, defensive riding and common sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Turbycat]

This was my pride and joy until a BMW driver came round a bend on the wrong side of the road and hit me head on at 55mph and promptly fled the scene on foot!

 

A split second later it looked like this

and I was left with both shoulders broken, my right arm almost off at the elbow, a fractured skull and fractured neck. Good job I had all the proper leathers on! I'd been riding all sorts of bikes since I was 6 and this was the first big off I'd had. In the middle of London at 0630 in the morning! Go figure. Now I spend my time with the nice safe pastime of flying anything i can get hold of

[Pete B]

Ouch, Turby, bet that stung! Nice to see your sense of humour survived...........listen to the man, Dan.............

 

(Here endeth the lesson...........)

 

Pete

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Lovely bike Turbycat - such a pity. But it really shows that its like we said a while back, sadly it not always what you do that makes the difference!

 

BEB

[mal brewer]

hi turbycat, just had a quick look at your profile,and in it I see you mention you have a plans built Krier Kraft. Whose design would that be? I'm interested because I built and flew  a 1/4 scale Krier Kraft for many years ,and am in the process of almost completing a replacement for it,also to 1/4 scale.It's a very uncommon prototype,like to hear a bit more about your model.I'll try to upload some photo's,when I can figure out how to post them.................Mal.

[Ian Jones]

Ross, Pet B & Richard Bond and others have thankfully put forward some unpleasant facts that are dead right. I've dealt with motorcyclists that express many of the view points expressed here and I've seen their blood all over the road, been to their inquests, seen families grieve. I thought I'd saved one that was going so fast he couldn't stop at a red traffic light after a railway bridge & T boned a car. It wasn't a morris 1000 driver being in the wrong place and the official stopping distance was of no use whatsoever at more than twice the speed limit. I know, I saw it happen. The motorcyclist  was on his back when I got to him, well smashed up, his helmet was down the road and his motor bike had gone over a 6 foot wall and disappeared into a back yard. He still had his scarf on & wasn't breathing, he had a pulse though. I got him breathing again and felt really good about it too. He died of his injuries three days later. I could provide numerous more examples but I won't, I don't wish to relive them all again.

 

Fines and taxation are not the same thing and that's a fact. Believe anything you like and find others that believe it also but it doesn't make that belief right.

 

We were all taught to drive to speed limits and there are very few occasions when not doing so is excusable. Many speed limits are in place for people who can't correctly reason why they are there and if you are one of those then all the more reason why you should comply.

 

If speed limits had been observed more widely  in the past then it may not have been necessary to reduce them since the time of Morris 1000s & cross ply tyres at which time there were fewer areas controlled by speed limits, freeways & a national speed limit of 70 mph. Speeders have only themselves to blame for the speed limits we have now.

As for the pathetic defence put up by the motorist flashing his headlights; well how is someone seeing him flashing his headlights going to react? No one knows but applying the brakes is a possibility that readily springs to mind otherwise that action would be pointless! Civic duty? Likely to cause the accident he claims to be his duty to prevent more like.

The prosecution was well deserved and most definitely in the public interest.

 

It's very sad that doing right has to be defended more robustly than doing wrong when defending wrong doing is perverse. 

 

Perhaps our words might save somoene, we will never know but I hope so.

[Turbycat]

Sorry Mal I don't know what plan it is. It belonged to my Dad so I kind of stole it last year. It was built years ago. I'll take some pics and put them on. It's only about a 46" span and I haven't flown it yet just finished running the engine in yesterday!

Andy

[Turbycat]

Hi Pete, it did sting a bit. Paramedics were there really fast and a nice big dose of ketamine from the HEMS doc sorted things out nicely It'll take more than a stupid libyian student in a hire car to rob me of my sense of humour.

 

Hi BEB,

 

yes like you say it's not always our own fault. Unfortunately now i can't ride a bike any more due to lack of movement in my right arm. I can, however, just about pick up my transmitter and fly in some sort of fashion 

 

Andy

[r6dan]

Posted by Pete B on 05/01/2011 16:30:55:

 

Responding to Dan, I can't blame you for feeling as you do. Being that much younger than most of us, you still have that personal invincibility we all possessed at your age, and which only diminishes as a result of life's experiences. I sincerely hope you survive to enjoy the wisdom of age, mate.........

 

TBH as I have gotten older I have calmed down,lots but I will still continue to get my kicks,

 

Ross,I am sorry to hear you attempted CPR knowing full well it was useless,I know how it feels as I have had 12 years in the forces(TA) it makes it worse knowing it was their own stupid fault,as riders we tend to block out what will happen if we make a mistake,and who has to mop/bag us up.

[Terence Lynock]

It never ceases to amaze me the way some bikers in the summer go riding in shorts and T shirts or whatever, bare legs and arms with no protection at all, then they wonder why they get ground down to the bone when they come off, when it comes to an argument between flesh and tarmac my monies on the black stuff.