Risk Assessment for starting I C models

[JOHN THOMPSON 5]

Hi all, due to a lengthy discussion on a current thread, which describes quite graphically coming together of one thumb and a irvine 40 driven prop, talk came around to risk assessments, so with my background of nearly 20 years working alongside the HSE , I offered to write a generic risk assesment, but for a risk assessment to be of any use it has to be acceptable to all users.

anyone who wishes to adopt the finished guidance notes will find that some flyers will be directed to things that they should be doing were as others will be discouraged from doing things that they should'nt, the main premise is that common sense prevails.

Our models are dangerous and have associated risks that would not be acceptable in any other walk of life, so this is our chance to manage these risks.

So if you have anything to offer on this subject nows your chance .

all the best John

[Lindsay Todd]

Has this not been done quite extensively by the bmfa and documented in the handbook, don't want to throw a bucket of cold water on the idea but the guidlines seem the obvious choice rather than re-writing the book.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

As I say, I think this is sound idea John. We have nothing to lose from calmly and dispassionately considering what the risks are and how we might frame our procedures in order to reduce thos risks to acceptable levels. Far from it, I think this shows us to be responsible and professional in our approach.

 

I suspect the only reason someone like BMFA has not already done this is due to the sad state of affairs that prevails over Messers Sue, Grabbit & Run. If we make this an "official risk assessment" and someone uses it and unfortunately is injured, despite adopting the proceedures, and some smart alec lawyer can show that the risk assessment failed to identify a risk "any reasonable person" should have foreseen then the author of that assessment could be liable for damages.

 

So I think it is very important that right at the outset we state clearly that such a risk assessment as is developed has nothing more than "advisory" status. This is in no way any reflection on the likely quality of the document - it is merely a sensible precaution to protect you and any other authors that get involved.

 

To this end I think the title of the document should include a disclaimer to the effect that the RA is "not in any sense an official document, in no way guarentees safe operation, is not meant to supercede or replace any operating instructions that came with the engine and does not in anyway absolve the user from taking any additional precautions they might feel appropriate".

 

I know this might seem over fussy - but these things are important in my view.

 

BEB

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Linds,

 

the handbook describes a proceedure - it does not identify and grade risk - I suspect for the reasons I give above - ie legal liability.

 

BEB

[Lindsay Todd]

BEB I think you have just said what I meant or at least what I was thinking.

[Jeff-C]

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I find all this talk of 'risk assessments' and 'health and safety' all a bit over the top.

Why does everything have to be so regimented these days and all so "C-Y-A"?

 

If you ask me, HSE and RA is simple common sense. Spinning propeller = Don't put your fingers there!

The equipment is available for you to purchase.

The assessment is;

Buy it and use it, protect yourself.

Don't buy or don't use it, don't use it and don't protect yourself.

If you choose not to use it, then you choose to 'risk' having your fingers chopped off.

 

A prime example is this.

You are walking along with your 2 children and come to a road and want to cross it. You look at the road, assess the danger, and choose to use the pelican crossing.

You are a teacher with 2 pupils wanting to cross a road. You have to spend 3 weeks before hand looking at every aspect of that road, the layout and the speed of traffic, the location of the pelican crossing. Will the timer on the pelican crossing be long enough to walk across the road. Will you have to take another supervisor with you to stand in the road on the pelican crossing in a high-vis jacket to ensure that cars know you are there.......etc etc etc.

 

As a human being, you are brought up to be aware of your surroundings. Risk assessment is instinctive. Just because a form or document has been written, it won't stop people ignoring it.

You are either careful and methodical and sensible and look at the dangers that come in real life, or not.

You shouldn't be doing something that is potentially dangerous if you don' have those basic natural skills you were born with.

 

 

Edited By Jeffrey Croot on 11/03/2011 22:33:39

[JOHN THOMPSON 5]

Hi Lindsay,

Unfortunately I don,t as yet have a copy of the BMFA handbook , but if as BEB says , there is a procedure stated but no HAZARD listed or RISK graded then quite simply it is not a risk assessment,

BEB, a risk assessment is no more than a guidance note, and, as long as your ability to control a risk is not over stated

ie don, t say that you will have a fire appliance on stand by every time you attempt to start your plane , when you Know you obviously can not ( a little extreme but you know what I'm getting at) then any come back on the author would be minimised.

At the end of the day it is a personal decision as to whether a flyer would follow this guidance , so as long as it is deemed to be best working practice by all concerned , those that chose not to bother with it are really on there own .

[JOHN THOMPSON 5]

Risk Assessments are not a legal requirement , but under the 1974 health and safety at work act you have a duty of care not only to your fellow man but yourself as well , and you are expected to describe how you intend to pursue this duty of care ie a risk assessment.

and yes a good risk assessment should be based on common sense.

 

Is the use of H and S guidance in the aeromodelling world a step too far ? ask any barrister whos had to defend a client against the HSE .

[Lindsay Todd]

Hi John,

I do not believe it is a risk assessment as might be carried out in other walks of life, the purpose being to identify hazards and outline safe procedures and methods of dealing with and mitigating risks but does provide recomendations for safe practice, or a guidance note if you like. My point simply being the BMFA Guidline might be worth looking at first, written I would hope with legal implications in mind since they provide inssurance. BMFA handbook can be downloaded from their site I believe. Personally I think you have your work cut out covering all aspects of the hobby as I would assume you would need to cover all activities, could be a lifes work John.

[simon burch]

Risk assessment for starting a model..............seriously??

 

The day I came into work a few years back and there were health and safety and risk assessment guidelines on the revolving gates, I thought I'd seen it all. This was a place where most people coming through those gates would be designing high performance sports cars. The thought that went through my mind then, is similar to when I read the post above. If you are capable of working as a design engineer, surely you are more than capable of negotiating a set of gates in the morning.

 

I don't work in engineering anymore, so I rarely have to deal with H&S, but personally, if you can't see the associated risks with using a model engine, then possibly you shouldn't be flying a model aircraft?

 

I'm sure the guy who put his thumb in the prop knew exactly how dangerous the prop was, but he made a MISTAKE, which resulted in an ACCIDENT, which I guess he will have learnt from (by mitigating the risk by using a remote glow)

 

Sorry, but I'm at a loss on this.

[Jeff-C]

Please don't get me wrong, I think that from a legal point of view H&S is vital and within a workplace I agree. Like I said, its all about the company and 'Cover Your A*%e'.  

When creating a club or site, then yes, assessments must be done, but to do assessments on 'how is the best way to stop your finger getting chopped off by a moving propellor', the answer is simple - Don't put your fingers near it!

Edited By Jeffrey Croot on 11/03/2011 22:54:40

[John Privett]

Posted by JOHN THOMPSON 5 on 11/03/2011 22:28:06:

Unfortunately I don,t as yet have a copy of the BMFA handbook

 

Yes you do. It's available here.

 

[Alan Cantwell]

sorry, i feel your letting your job influence your feelings about the injury suffered, its a hobby, dont overkill the solution to this, just be more carefull, the best advice has already been given, a simple remote glow, if many follow this sound advice, then this alone could save many from being injured, i am SURROUNDED by H&S, i know how it works, if a flying field owner needs such a thing, then fair enough, but i prefer keeping my head down, and not even going there, but i DO apreciate your concerns, i just dont think it neccasary

[Peter Beeney]

Firstly can I say that for me Bob Moore’s thread - A few safety thoughts….. is now jammed up, at the bottom of page three, seemingly by a post by Erfolg at eleven minutes past ten this morning. I was going to write a post, but I don’t think it would have appeared in the thread ok.

Relating to this thread, also I’m not sure about the risk assessment, if this is just going to tell me there is a risk I think I would have to agree with that, but I have been aware of that for quite a long time; and as I’ve always read everything I can about aeromodelling, I would say fairly substantially aware.

If, on the other hand, it’s going to give me a set of instructions on how to do it then I would certainly read them. However, if they differed in any way from the system that I use then I would politely decline to change. Part of my thinking is that I always use exactly the same method, that way I consider that it greatly lessens the chance of me making a mistake and and doing damage to my person. Changing that now I would consider to be a mistake, because it instantly puts me in a situation that I’m not familiar with, and that’s where possibly things start to go wrong.

I try and keep everything as simple as possible, so I guess any changes would only make it more complicated, too. It’s not perfect, nothing ever is, but it’s stood me in good stead for many years, plus, as I said before, a fair number of people that I’ve passed the message on to.

This is not intended to be criticism or argument, just a mild statement of how I look at safety. I’m afraid I see very little to change my views, at least at the moment.

PB

[Big Bandit]

Posted by JOHN THOMPSON 5 on 11/03/2011 22:43:00:

Risk Assessments are not a legal requirement , but under the 1974 health and safety at work act you have a duty of care not only to your fellow man but yourself as well , and you are expected to describe how you intend to pursue this duty of care ie a risk assessment.

and yes a good risk assessment should be based on common sense.

 

Is the use of H and S guidance in the aeromodelling world a step too far ? ask any barrister whos had to defend a client against the HSE .

 

 

John, Not wanting to damp down the idea, which as a practicing health and safety professional I agree, there has to be guidelines. I have to say that the Health and Safety at Work act is what it says, and relates to H&S at work. Anyone working for the BMFA as a paid employee does have a duty under the act for their own safety any anyone else who may be affected by their acts or omissions. Volunteers would have a similar duty whilst acting in an employed but unpaid capacity. I doubt if the HSE would be interested in the activities of a model flying club. On the other hand the Local enforcing authority may well be but under alternative legislation.

 

Risk assessment is a good idea providing it focuses on the actual risks and not perceived risk and is not prohibitive. May be a preferable approach would be to form a plan of how to manage the activities of the club safely in the way of procedures which most clubs already do.

 

Chris.

[Ultymate]

Having spent all my working life working on or around rotating machinery of all types I don't think any amount of risk assessment is going to stop someone who either through a moments lapse of concentration or sheer foolishness (Bob if you read this I'm not having a pop) puts his digits or any other body part in the line of fire.As I've stated before I've had a thumb filleted similar to Bob's through a control line engine starting backwards in a team racer. No amount of written risk assessment will prevent these type of happenings. I think the risks of a spinning prop are all too evident be it a 9" prop or a 30" one.

In my opinion risk assessment and the H&S legislation that goes with it are best left to the workplace and not imposed on the club flying field. What we have as guidelines from the BMFA handbook are sufficient in my view. Please don't drag more red tape into the hobby. Safety is a frame of mind but no amount of written words will stop accidents happening from time to time.

[Tim Mackey]

Posted by simon burch on 11/03/2011 22:45:44:

Risk assessment for starting a model..............seriously??

 

The day I came into work a few years back and there were health and safety and risk assessment guidelines on the revolving gates, I thought I'd seen it all. This was a place where most people coming through those gates would be designing high performance sports cars. The thought that went through my mind then, is similar to when I read the post above. If you are capable of working as a design engineer, surely you are more than capable of negotiating a set of gates in the morning.

 

I don't work in engineering anymore, so I rarely have to deal with H&S, but personally, if you can't see the associated risks with using a model engine, then possibly you shouldn't be flying a model aircraft?

 

I'm sure the guy who put his thumb in the prop knew exactly how dangerous the prop was, but he made a MISTAKE, which resulted in an ACCIDENT, which I guess he will have learnt from (by mitigating the risk by using a remote glow)

 

Sorry, but I'm at a loss on this.

 

I think I'm with you on this Simon

[andy watson]

Waste of time.

 

All a risk assessment does is shows you have considered the risks and hazards involved in a procedure. They do not reduce accidents. They certainly do not help in situations like Bobs, where a reflex action to grab a falling glow start caused the accident.

 

Oh, and teachers do not need to spend 3 weeks analysing road crossings. The rules for risk assessments in schools are actually very sensible- when they are applied properly.

[Tim Mackey]

Peter B...I have deleted said posting so you should be good to go

[Lazygit]

Some people may be in genuine need of a risk assessment for engine starting. They would be well advised to take up another hobby. At least with a screaming (or even a puttering) engine, it is trying to tell you something. IMO the real danger is the motor that sits quietly, pretending to be asleep and of no immediate danger. Then it starts at full tilt removing any handy appendage. Yes, you've guessed, the electric motor. If you didn't guess, and you use electric, maybe another pastime would be more suitable.

 

If there is a place where a risk assessment could be useful is fixed wing landings. The habit of landing close to the flight line (less than 10m is close) with a short ground run, in which some indulge, is positively frightening. How do I know? I've been hit on the flight line. Was he an idiot? I hope not, he's an instructor.

[Tim Mackey]

Blimeys, I assume you dont fly slope combat LG

Maybe we could get a risk assessment done for that too - in fact I'll do it now.

 

Its very risky.

[JOHN THOMPSON 5]

Okay , okay I get the message , I was only asking for a few ideas for a tightly focused risk assesment to help out a few like minded flyers , it was 'nt ment to be a national overhaul of the aeromodelling industry, so I suppose for now the BMFA hand book will have to surfice

all the best John

 

[Lazygit]

 Posted by Tim Mackey - Administrator on 11/03/2011 23:42:10:

Blimeys, I assume you dont fly slope combat LG

 

You're quite right I don't, but then I'm a wimp. I just don't like the idea of being chewed up by a 2000rpm prop on the front of a 20mph 6lb model. Slope combat may be different but it's someone else's game.

 

Hmmm, maybe sticking fingers in a revolving is enjoyable for some.If so who am I to stop them.

Edited By Lazygit on 11/03/2011 23:55:46

[i12fly]

John, please do not be put off by the negative comments above. Too many people think they know best it seems, perhaps they do. But I think we can all learn something, we can all improve our technique. Its not just putting your hand in a prop or the reflex action. Its considering the what ifs, what the distractions are, what is the restraint method (and there's lots of opinions about that), what goes wrong, props come off, blades break, starter rubbers fly off (and they hurt), pusher props, engines running backwards and lots more. Its perhaps OK for some of the experienced people above but what about the novice -young or old. Is their trainer (if they have one) going to advise them on all the safety aspects? NO! I can't think of all of them sitting here in the comfort of an armchair let alone up at the field when all I want to do is fly. Thay's why a robust safe practice is required. The BMFA booklet only scratches the surface. For those people who choose not to operate a safe practice -fine, it is up to them. For those who know they do or know it all -fine. With luck they'll be OK. I believe you create your own luck by good practice. Ignore those who scoff, they probably read the Daily Mail. Lets have some good input for best practice, then those who want to benefit can.

[BB]

Anyone else got any 'Beans' they want counted