CE Approval and certificate verification

[Declan Barry]

I read with interest Nigel Hawes article ‘Get a move On!’ especially the section about CE Compliance.

I recently purchased one of the FrSky 2.4Ghz units from GiantCod and I asked about CE compliance because it came from outside the EU. I got a reply from Rob that they were CE compliant otherwise he would be able to sell them. I have also downloaded the CE certificate for the said item but in relation to the average ‘Jane/Joe Bloggs’, how do we verify a CE mark??

 

I can''t find a website anywhere to verify that the said item is indeed genuine apart from frsky''s own certificates so I am assuming that it is.

 

Now before anyone bounces on me about taking maybe such simplistic approach. Ponder on the following points.

 

1. Based on lack of verification, how can we be sure that JR, Fubtaba and all the other electronics in the EU meet statutory requirement. Who verified them and how can we check?

 

2.Surely If the EU made up this directive then they should have some way for people to verify CE certificate.

 

3. From a BMFA insurance point of view, we need more clarity on where we stand. Its got the sticker (which we are all told to look out for)

 

Declan

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

It's the seller's responsibility that the CE mark is valid. Any offence is committed by the seller, not the buyer.

 

Although in theory you could be prosecuted if your equipment is transmitting outside the permitted specifications you would have an excellent defence as you wouldn't be expected to be able to verify this yourself - as would be the case if a properly certified piece of equipment went faulty without your knowledge.

 

The insurance aspect has been done to death in earlier threads but there is nothing in the BMFA insurance to stop you using any equipment, certified or not or even home designed and built as long as you're not deliberately committing an illegal act.

[Andy Harris]

Declan

 

You'd be suprised to find out how much kit has a CE Mark but does not conform.

 

The two of the several processes are:

 

a) Design file, the manufacturer puts aside a design file that has enough evidence to support the CE Mark

 

b) Test Lab, the manufacturer (or importer) takes the kit to a test lab in a 'typical configuration' and then specifies which tests they want. The data is added to the design file.

 

No one actually verifies the results. The system is 'self-regulating'. Now this may sound weak but in a competitive market works well, here's why:

 

A competitor can take their competition's kit to a Lab and have it tested not only against the OEM selected tests, but all the tests they reckon would apply in the market. If the product fails they complain to the Trading Standard people and bad things happen.

Because everyone knows this is the case they keep fairly tight on the testing.

[Andy Harris]

... whoops didn't finish...

 

In some of the more difficult areas, the manufacturers use the 'Office' versions of the tests rather than the home versions.

 

The reason foe there being many non-compliant products out there is because people in glass houses don't throw stones.

 

So if you're a phone manufacturer you'd better be pretty sure your own house is in order before accusing others.

A completely different issue is people putting CE stickers on stuff without testing at all.

 

Testing a product like a TX would be upwards of £10k the bigger player can afford this, but they will also be keeping an eye on imported competition. The TSO would take a claim against an importer that was presented by a manufacturer with independent test results very seriously.

 

However they only tend to do this when their profits are hurt.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Andy Harris on 13/03/2011 12:39:56:

Declan

 

You'd be suprised to find out how much kit has a CE Mark but does not conform.

 

 

...and of course, many of the CE marks are just the letters C and E placed next to each other - not in the specific CE format based on segments from 2 adjoining circles - with either no specific meaning or speculated meanings such as China Export or what have you.

[Declan Barry]

Hi Guys..

 

That being the case, then why have CE marking if its only being self regulated or as in the case of profits, a competitor starts to hurt someones elses profits by importing from outside the EU.

 

Smacks of a EU old boys club to keep profits within a chosen circle.

 

Declan

[John Privett]

Not sure about the "EU old boys club" Declan...

 

The CE standards are published and anyone selling certain categories of goods has to confirm that it meets those standards. Any company can produce goods and state that it meets those standards, but if - when checked - it turned out that the goods don't meet those standards then the supplier would be in deep water, as would anybody importing and selling stuff that didn't even claim to be CE-compliant.

 

The alternative would be to insist that everything was formally checked by an EU facility. Imagine the delays and bureaucracy - now that would smack of an "EU old boys club" (you can't sell your stuff here until we've examined and passed it....)

[PatMc]

It's also worth pointing out that the USA operate a similar system of compliance in their FCC standards.

[Declan Barry]

Posted by John Privett on 13/03/2011 21:00:59:

Not sure about the "EU old boys club" Declan...

The alternative would be to insist that everything was formally checked by an EU facility. Imagine the delays and bureaucracy - now that would smack of an "EU old boys club" (you can't sell your stuff here until we've examined and passed it....)

Hi John..

 

Point taken. Purely frustration on my part becasue I am now trying to determine if I should fly with the 'Product'

 

IF (God forbid) I was to have an accident with one of my aircraft using the 'product', where do I stand legally?

 

I've checked that it is CE compliant as best I can from both the Importer and the Company who made it - its got the sticker which seems to be the correct type. I've got what seems to be bonefide certificates -downloaded from website.

 

What next??

 

Declan

 

 

[Andy Symons]

It's not neceassarily the seller who is responsible for items complying with all relevent legislation, it is the importer. So if you buy it from a UK supplier you can reasonable expect it to be OK and not worry too much about it because they will be responsible in the event of any issue. However if you buy it from say Hong Kong that makes you the importer and therefore responsible.

Edited By Andy Symons on 13/03/2011 22:04:02

[Tony Smith 7]

Posted by Declan Barry on 13/03/2011 12:05:39:

...

I recently purchased one of the FrSky 2.4Ghz units from GiantCod and I asked about CE compliance because it came from outside the EU. I got a reply from Rob that they were CE compliant otherwise he would be able to sell them. I have also downloaded the CE certificate for the said item but in relation to the average ‘Jane/Joe Bloggs’, how do we verify a CE mark??...

 

I can''t find a website anywhere to verify that the said item is indeed genuine apart from frsky''s own certificates so I am assuming that it is.

....

 

Declan, I think you're missing the fact that the CE mark is a Declaration by the manufacturer (or importer). The declaration is normally backed up by appropriate evidence of the design, or test results etc, but in essence the CE mark just says that that whoever applied the mark "says it complies". There's no official body that has to approve the mark.

 

In that context a central database of everyone who's made such a declaration doesn't make any sense.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Declan,

 

you are completely in the clear - in fact you have gone much further than you needed to in order to "cover yourself". Once you purchase the item in good faith having seen a CE mark on it you discharged your responsibilities more than completely (such as they are!).

 

The legal onus is entirely on the manufacturer (if made within the EU) or the importer if brought in from outside. Not on the buyer/user.

 

Even if you were the importer - e.g. you bought from Hong Kong, you would have no liability if they were only for your personal use and you were not trading them on inside the EU.

 

So, nothing to worry about. This has been trashed out on here in exhaustive detail many times now - try "CE mark" in the search box.

 

BEB

[Vecchio Austriaco]

Tony you are completly correct. As it is a self declaration it doesn't guarantee anything which is valid for all products carrying the mark.

Also - the mark doesn't have to be on the product itself - if the shape or the surface do not allow it it may be also on the packaging.

 

[Declan Barry]

 

Declan, I think you're missing the fact that the CE mark is a Declaration by the manufacturer (or importer). The declaration is normally backed up by appropriate evidence of the design, or test results etc, but in essence the CE mark just says that that whoever applied the mark "says it complies". There's no official body that has to approve the mark.

 

In that context a central database of everyone who's made such a declaration doesn't make any sense.

 

Hi Tony.

 

Why have a declaration if nobody is actually monitoring and enforcing it. It just sounds like 'politic' speak from the EU.

 

Got this from the CE Marking Directive:

 

Member States shall presume that products bearing the CE marking comply with all the provisions of this Directive, including the conformity assessment procedures;

 

Key word for me  is presume

 

One thing I learnt is, never presume anything because the moment you presume something, it will jump up and bite you in da bum

 

Declan

Edited By Declan Barry on 17/03/2011 20:06:22

Edited By Declan Barry on 17/03/2011 20:06:53

Edited By Declan Barry on 17/03/2011 20:12:51

[Erfolg]

Surely there are more important issues to worry about than a CE mark?

 

We have done the issue to death in the past.

 

I am more worried about recycled packaging contaminating my food from the supermarket, that is a real issue, that could be life threatening. At last something that I can really worry about.

[Declan Barry]

Okay.. Done to death..

 

Now. recycled packaging..

 

Does it have a CE mark on it?

 

Declan

[Tony Smith 7]

Posted by Declan Barry on 17/03/2011 20:03:14:

Hi Tony.

Why have a declaration if nobody is actually monitoring and enforcing it. It just sounds like 'politic' speak from the EU.

 

It's no different to a lot of other regulation. Read the label on any product, a tin of beans for example. It says it contains beans, and it would be illegal if it didn't. I'll bet there's no central government authority and database keeping a central register to prove whether every tin of beans really does contain beans.

[Bill R]

Hi Guys,
Just a small point but transmitters cannot be "self certified". all transmitters must be tested by an appointed test house and then if they are ok they get what is called "Type approval". The CE mark info should also carry the registration number of the test house that tested the samples and approved the transmitter. You can then check the list of test houses, find the one with the same number and bobs your uncle.

The Declaration of Conformity must carry the name and number of the test house that gave type approval to the transmitter.

Standards are not law, only Directives. Transmitters come under the Electro magnetic compatibility Directive [EMC].

Usual test houses are TUV, SGS, [the biggest ones] and around a dozen others in the EEC.

 

Bill R.

 

[Garbo]

"Tens of thousands of hours studying the EU!" "and the more you study the worse it gets!"

I'd stop now and start enjoying life for a change, your not going to get those hours back.