Vecchio Austriaco Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 The NOMAC (North Oxforshire Model Aeroplane Club) is within 10 Miles of the location - our field is close to Chipping Norton. I have the honor to fly with this guys - but I do not know any member who owns (or rather owned) such a model. In any case I will inform our secretary - to be sure every member is informed. Cheers VA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Cantwell Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 wicked-pedia thing to do there you go patmac, and an example, plus a modern explanation guilty as charged me lud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Posted by PatMc on 01/01/2012 16:57:21:Posted by Pete B on 01/01/2012 14:18:42: I've reported it as an attempt to sell stolen property. As Alan 4 has said, without making some attempt to find the rightful owner you cannot just assume rights of ownership. This is theft. Just another example of the amoral society we now enjoy.......... Pete Now that the prospective seller has been metaphorically hanged, are you able to back up the above inference ? Sorry, Pat, I'm just a firm believer in that ten innocent men should be hanged rather than one guilty man escape punishment.......Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Posted by Alan 4 on 01/01/2012 18:32:38:wicked-pedia thing to do there you go patmac, and an example, plus a modern explanation guilty as charged me lud How do you know that the seller hasn't already gone through the proper process of attempting to return the model to the loser ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Posted by Pete B on 01/01/2012 18:33:33:Posted by PatMc on 01/01/2012 16:57:21:Posted by Pete B on 01/01/2012 14:18:42: I've reported it as an attempt to sell stolen property. As Alan 4 has said, without making some attempt to find the rightful owner you cannot just assume rights of ownership. This is theft. Just another example of the amoral society we now enjoy.......... Pete Now that the prospective seller has been metaphorically hanged, are you able to back up the above inference ? Sorry, Pat, I'm just a firm believer in that ten innocent men should be hanged rather than one guilty man escape punishment.......Pete Your way of enjoying the amoral society ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Wheatley Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Posted by PatMc on 01/01/2012 18:38:22:Posted by Alan 4 on 01/01/2012 18:32:38:wicked-pedia thing to do there you go patmac, and an example, plus a modern explanation guilty as charged me lud How do you know that the seller hasn't already gone through the proper process of attempting to return the model to the loser ? Doh,but that would mean not jumping to conclusions and no public hanging could take place.Much better to rely on woulda,coulda,shouldas and gossip away like old ladys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Cantwell Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Thats a fair point Pat, i will ask them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Well, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would feel a bit better about it.....Posted by PatMc on 01/01/2012 18:38:22: How do you know that the seller hasn't already gone through the proper process of attempting to return the model to the loser ? He may well have but it would have been helpful if he had explained as much. In my former profession, I was entitled to ask questions of anyone to establish whether an offence had been committed. If nothing was amiss, that was the end of the matter. I'm sure that Ebay has some small print which gives it a similar right to question sellers to establish whether the goods are being sold legitimately. In that case, they should accept that responsibilty when a report is made and investigate it. If all is above board, there isn't a problem. I've made the report based on the seller's own description. If he didn't want unwelcome attention, that's tough. I don't expect, for one moment, that Ebay will do anything at all about it, judging by their response to other matters brought to light in the past on this forum. I'm sure legit Ebay users would be quite happy to see their fees put to some useful purpose, anyway! Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 It seems to me that Pete's position is a fair one. On the face of it (in terms of what the seller has disclosed) he has not taken reasonable steps to find the owner - he certainly hasn't stated that he has. Therefore Pete has grounds to suspect that this maybe a case of "theft by finding" as outlined in Alan's post. So he alerts Ebay to that possibility - ie that it maybe aiding and abetting in the selling of stolen goods. Surely the onus is now on ebay to make appropriate enquiries. If this seller has taken reasonable steps to find the owner, and can show that he has, then surely he has nothing to fear/lose by such questions being asked and Ebay can decide if it wishes to continue to allow him to list the item. No harm done there that I can see? BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Posted by Pete B on 01/01/2012 19:03:02: Well, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would feel a bit better about it.....Posted by PatMc on 01/01/2012 18:38:22: How do you know that the seller hasn't already gone through the proper process of attempting to return the model to the loser ? He may well have but it would have been helpful if he had explained as much. In my former profession, I was entitled to ask questions of anyone to establish whether an offence had been committed. If nothing was amiss, that was the end of the matter. I'm sure that Ebay has some small print which gives it a similar right to question sellers to establish whether the goods are being sold legitimately. In that case, they should accept that responsibilty when a report is made and investigate it. If all is above board, there isn't a problem. I've made the report based on the seller's own description. If he didn't want unwelcome attention, that's tough. I don't expect, for one moment, that Ebay will do anything at all about it, judging by their response to other matters brought to light in the past on this forum. I'm sure legit Ebay users would be quite happy to see their fees put to some useful purpose, anyway! Pete If the seller had anything to hide he need not have mentioned that the model had been found.I've sold items on Ebay but it's never occurred to me to volunteer proof of ownership & frankly I don't see why this seller should. If a prospective buyer had been concerned about any items I sold I'd have been happy to offer proof where possible, perhaps this chap is in the same position.Perhaps Ebay have already asked the question.It seems to me that there's too much "holier than thou" attitude being displayed in this thread & a number of other Ebay related ones. Why do some people seem compelled to set themselves up as Ebay vigilantes ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Cantwell Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 because we are law abiding model aircraft flyers, and most of us try to look after our own!!! i cannot abide the its nothing to do with me look the other way scenario i have asked the seller, i await the reply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 01/01/2012 19:23:23:I No harm done there that I can see? BEBReally, you don't think that there is any harm in accusing someone of probably committing a criminal offence without any positive proof ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Posted by Alan 4 on 01/01/2012 19:45:59:because we are law abiding model aircraft flyers, and most of us try to look after our own!!! i cannot abide the its nothing to do with me look the other way scenario i have asked the seller, i await the reply It's not a case of "nothing to do with me" it's a case of not pursuing vigilante tactics. Prospective buyers have a plenty of opportunity to question sellers & decide for themselves if the items are worth bidding for. Whether or not they check the value is their own responsibility & no business of anyone else's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Cantwell Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 your after a row Pat, leave it alone, if finder replies, i will let you know, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Pat, surely there is a difference in expectation in cases where you declare you are selling something you claim to have found as opposed to something that is obviously yours to sell. I don't agree that it wouldn't occur to a reasonable person in such case to establish in the blurb accompanying the ad that they had taken reasonable steps to find the owner. I know that if I had found something and having tried to find the owner decided to sell it I would make it very plain that I had indeed tried - very hard - in order to establish my legitimacy as the new owner. I think Pete is right - I don't think these questions (and the finer sentiments they represent) have even crossed the mind of this seller. I suspect he thinks "I found it - its now mine" and I don't think that for an instant he even suspects that he is doing anything wrong - and would probably be shocked by the suggestion that he is. That is why he so openly states "I found it", I suspect he sees nothing wrong in what he may be doing. That, I think, is what Pete meant by "this amoral society" the fact that too many people don't see such actions as "wrong". Now as I say, if he really has tried to find the owner, but can't, then good luck to him. But as I began by saying I don't believe that any reasonable seller would fail to point that out under these particular circumstances - ask yourself honestly Pat, if you were selling something you've "found" wouldn't you declare the case that gives you the right to sell it? BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Alan, I'm not after "a row" as you put it & I'm not about to be intimidated by your response. BEB, there have been a number of posts in this thread that, IMO, are potentially libellous. It's not up to the accused to prove innocence, quite the reverse. In fact if I were a mod I'd pull a number of the posts on this thread until they could be substantiated. The opinions that you have formed & stated are just that - opinions with no foundation of proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Hardly libellous in my view, Pat. There is a big difference in law between establishing whether an offence may have been committed and actually accusing someone. The seller is, by his own admission, selling something he has found without any explanation as to how it is legitimately his to sell. There is therefore prima facie evidence that this may be theft by finding. If someone engaged in such an enterprise advertises the fact on the Web, it's hardly surprising that there may be unanticipated consequences! By reporting the matter, it is for Ebay to make appropriate enquiries as to whether it is appropriate for them to list this item. If it's all above board, then fine. I'm not instituting a witch-hunt, after all! If everyone adopts an 'It's nothing to do with me' attitude, then we're off down a slippery slope, aren't we? That's not to say we haven't already been gathering speed for a long time..... Ebay vigilante - I think not. I've got much better things to do but but it only took about 20 seconds to report the item, so what the heck? Holier than thou - no, not you, Pat - I'm very happy to see you an equal with a different point of view, but holier than a common thief - you bet I am! Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beeney Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I wonder if anyone might care to suggest any guidelines on exactly how much money should be spent, how much effort expended and how much time should elapse before a model that had been found would become the finders property? If you found a model and took it to the police I think what would happen is that they would hold it for a time and then give it back to you after a suitable interval. Would they make any effort at all to find the owner? I think that the only instance of this would be is if it had caused some damage. If you were the loser would you go to the police to see if it had been found? You might in fact feel that it might have possibly caused some damage so you might decline that option; I’d tend to think there’s a least a 50/50 chance of that.I’ve never experienced any of my own models actually flying away but I’ve seen one or two others that have. Also I know for certain sure it’s possible to spend some money, plus great deal of time and effort, to find the owner of an expensive flyaway model. All to no avail. I tend to think, for whatever reasons and from two experiences, the owners of lost models do not want to be found; and again from my very limited experience of this, if someone finds a model and doesn’t want to keep it for themselves they may take it to the local flying club. Which seems a fairly logical thing to do. After all, there might be a small reward on offer. Even if it didn’t belong to one of the club members they might stand the best chance of finding the owner, by association. I certainly have no great views on this particular instance, I’ve never dealt at all on eBay, and I don’t even look at it from one month to the next, but I would agree entirely with PatMc, there must surely be some foundation for accusation. It seems all to easy these days for someone just to accuse someone else of some wrongdoing and in an instant there are repercussions that can last a very long time. It seems to me that in some areas of life this can have far reaching affects to a perfectly innocent person; and then without anything very much happening to the accuser when proved wrong.If anyone was upset by this ad, would it have not been possible to get in touch with the seller in the first instance to establish the facts, and then taken any appropriate steps after that, instead of simply just speculating? PB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Cantwell Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Pat, i was NOT trying to intimidate you, i was asking you to leave it, wind yer yer neck in no reply from the seller yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W-O Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Posted by PatMc on 01/01/2012 18:38:22: How do you know that the seller hasn't already gone through the proper process of attempting to return the model to the loser ? A point I made in the fourth post of the thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spice Cat Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Not having read all the thread but Peter, yes the idea is that the finder takes "reasonable" steps to find the loser. The word "reasonable" runs through much legislation that never defines its boundaries and therefore is entirely subjective. I think your idea of taking it to the local police station is a good idea. Normally such items, unless of a high value are handed back to the finder within 28 days. Police have warehouses full of unclaimed items and cycles are the worst. Can I put in a quick plug as well for a bit of crime prevention advice?? Use a UV pen to put your postcode on stuff such as mobile phones, ipods, kindles and the likes and this would also extend to model stuff as well. (Keep a note of the IMEI number on you phone and please register it) Most police stations will have kits to help you out in that area. Also for those with cycles; please, please, please record your frame number. I despair of lifting a fourteen year old off a £2000 bike he claims to have bought from a mate for £50 and finding the owner has not put the frame number of the crime report. I seized a carbon fibre framed cycle some months ago from a young "citizen" valued at £1200. Marin were very helpful and I found out who assembled the bike, which port it had been shipped from, what date and its estimated arrival date in the UK. There the trail went cold with only one importer into the UK, they couldn't trace the frame number for me and subsequently I could not reunite said cycle with its rightful owner. Said citizen requested the return of "his" cycle and I assured him it would be returned when Satan went to work on a snow plough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W-O Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Posted by Spice Cat on 01/01/2012 21:46:34:Not having read all the thread but Peter, yes the idea is that the finder takes "reasonable" steps to find the loser. The word "reasonable" runs through much legislation that never defines its boundaries and therefore is entirely subjective. I think your idea of taking it to the local police station is a good idea. Normally such items, unless of a high value are handed back to the finder within 28 days. Police have warehouses full of unclaimed items and cycles are the worst. Can I put in a quick plug as well for a bit of crime prevention advice?? Use a UV pen to put your postcode on stuff such as mobile phones, ipods, kindles and the likes and this would also extend to model stuff as well. (Keep a note of the IMEI number on you phone and please register it) Most police stations will have kits to help you out in that area. Also for those with cycles; please, please, please record your frame number. I despair of lifting a fourteen year old off a £2000 bike he claims to have bought from a mate for £50 and finding the owner has not put the frame number of the crime report. I seized a carbon fibre framed cycle some months ago from a young "citizen" valued at £1200. Marin were very helpful and I found out who assembled the bike, which port it had been shipped from, what date and its estimated arrival date in the UK. There the trail went cold with only one importer into the UK, they couldn't trace the frame number for me and subsequently I could not reunite said cycle with its rightful owner. Said citizen requested the return of "his" cycle and I assured him it would be returned when Satan went to work on a snow plough. We mark everything with Smartwater, and I also engrave the chassis of expensive electronics. This doesn't stop it from getting stolen, or help us recover anything,it just ensures that it ends up in a canal when they realise it has been marked In 2009, my wife's electric bike (looks like a petrol scooter, not a pedal bike) was stolen off our driveway. I had made modifications to it which made it unique, I had the frame number, but the police weren't interested in even noting it down, or the mods. They wanted to know if I had a suspect, well of course I did, had arrested him, tried him and imprisoned him by myself After trying to report other things, we will only bother wasting our time with them if we need a CR number for insurance purposes. I'm not impressed with the service they give in the west midlands! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spice Cat Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Steve W-O, Sorry to hear about your expirences, I can't answer for West Mids. Unfortunately many crimes will now be dealt with by telephone reporting where the emphasis seems to be on logging the call rather than investigating. This is the result of senior management action and not the actions of individual officers on the front line. It's easy to knock the Old Bill but you are more than welcome to come out with us on patrol and see what we actually do each day. And the amount of time and personnel we have to expend dealing with issues that are not really our job but some bright spark up top sees it as a good promotional tool. Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Posted by Pete B on 01/01/2012 20:54:23: Hardly libellous in my view, Pat. There is a big difference in law between establishing whether an offence may have been committed and actually accusing someone. I've reported it as an attempt to sell stolen property. He's not being honest at all, just demonstrating his limited intelligence … If he was honest, he'd have handed it in as found property and left the proper authorities with the problem. These seems like an accusations to me. The seller is, by his own admission, selling something he has found without any explanation as to how it is legitimately his to sell. There is therefore prima facie evidence that this may be theft by finding. If someone engaged in such an enterprise advertises the fact on the Web, it's hardly surprising that there may be unanticipated consequences! Because he chooses not to volunteer an explanation leaves him open to people forming whatever personal opinion they want but does not give them the right to make public accusations. By reporting the matter, it is for Ebay to make appropriate enquiries as to whether it is appropriate for them to list this item. If it's all above board, then fine. I'm not instituting a witch-hunt, after all! Then why not allow Ebay the time to make their enquiries then perhaps post any comments based on the outcome ? Otherwise it might seem that you are instituting a witch-hunt. If everyone adopts an 'It's nothing to do with me' attitude, then we're off down a slippery slope, aren't we? That's not to say we haven't already been gathering speed for a long time..... I have never suggested ignoring a crime or suspected crime. IMO reporting to the appropriate authority is the correct action but only if my suspicions are subsequently confirmed would I consider posting the specific details publicly. However I might feel free to make a post about a dodgy sales offer if it could be done in general terms in order to alert potential buyers but then it would be up to them to be on their guard.The subject of this thread & other Ebay related ones does seem to be leading to the slippery slope of people thinking that they are at liberty to make whatever accusations they want based on there own opinion rather than substantive evidence. Ebay vigilante - I think not. I've got much better things to do but but it only took about 20 seconds to report the item, so what the heck? If you have better things to do why bother to post your opinions here as well as the 20 well spent seconds ? Holier than thou - no, not you, Pat - I'm very happy to see you an equal with a different point of view, but holier than a common thief - you bet I am! Pete Where's this common thief ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Posted by Steve W-O on 01/01/2012 21:39:07:Posted by PatMc on 01/01/2012 18:38:22: How do you know that the seller hasn't already gone through the proper process of attempting to return the model to the loser ? A point I made in the fourth post of the thread! You did indeed but it didn't stop the would be vigilantes. Posted by Alan 4 on 01/01/2012 21:07:07:Pat, i was NOT trying to intimidate you, i was asking you to leave it, wind yer yer neck in no reply from the seller yetAlan, do you realise that you're being ironic ? Edited By PatMc on 01/01/2012 22:54:32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.