Phil May Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I heard today that the BMFA insurance is void if using Orange type recievers because they are not CE approved. Has anyone heard of this or was I miss informed? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Cantwell Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 a good point, then again, if you say--get your car repaired useing non standard parts, is the car insured in an incident, its called a minefield, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Flyer Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 CE approval has nothing to do with insurance. You could build your own radio system from scratch, which would obviously not be CE approved. So long as it's performance conforms to the relevant regulations, governing radio transmitting and receiving equipment, it would be perfectly legal to use and would be covered by BMFA insurance. Orange receivers have CE approval, anyway, at least the ones I've seen have. Edited By Devon Flyer on 31/03/2012 18:38:40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 the jungle telegraph etc ...are wonderfull things for spreading word ... this issue has been mentioned a few times in the past phil.......if you really want peace of mind i would get in touch with the BMFA/INS people...i would think if you or whoever had an accident and there was the chance of the ins company not paying out due to you using a clone of a branded RX - they would refuse to payout on those grounds..... ken anderson ne..1 ins dept opinion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Frsky are sold in the UK and are therefore CE approved. I am sure this information is circulated by those who have vested interests and are not going to let facts get in the way. Take note of Devon flyer. CE approved out of spec, not legal, whoever made it. Fly with a dodgy Rx or Tx or any other component, and admit it, I think you could find you had no cover, CE approved, or who ever made it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil May Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 Miss informed it is then. Cheers guys Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I've resisted posting so far but I'd just like to make one point here. BMFA insurance indemnifies you when something happens which is YOUR fault. If an accident happens which is NOT due to anything under your control (e.g. not due to poor flying, not proved due to bad building or maintenance) then there is no claim against you and the insurance won't pay anybody anything. You could hypothesise that the only time the insurance is "valid" regarding equipment is when it isn't certified and compliant!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Martin, I know your comments are tongue in cheek. Yet it is almost certain that the insurance company will have a clause requiring all equipment to be legal, in good order and not operated knowingly in an irresponsible manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Only (and only partly) the last paragraph but don't forget that the legality only refers to the sale and/or importation of the equipment and (in the case of transmitters/modules) they are only certified to comply with RF matters and has absolutely nothing to do with quality and reliability of operation. The law really only has significant teeth when operating >7kg models- with smaller models only the most blatant disregard for safe operation to cause danger would incur legal proceedings which might possibly jeopardise your insured status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazygit Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 And there is plenty of blatant disregard for safe operation that can be witnessed every day at clubs' pits. When something happens which is technically a reportable incident, people just laugh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Well, I don't know where you have the misfortune to fly - but that most certainly does not go for the pits at my club where I'm pleased to say safety is taken seriously. And I have to say that has been the case at a number of other clubs I have visited lately. I wouldn't fly at a club which does not have proper pit proceedures and encourage all of its members to follow them. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 I hope that's not the case at many clubs - I'd hate to think it was the norm. What sort of things are people laughing about? Do you have a safety officer - and if you have has anyone asked what's the point in having one? Edited By Martin Harris on 01/04/2012 00:49:51 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W-O Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 It appears to be true. According to a report this morning, any transmitter that is not CE marked, and is not used with a matching CE marked receiver, and for which you can not show a valid receipt of purchase from a UK dealer is illegal. It appears that have been visiting known flying fields and checking. as the picture shows. Cut out the faces and aeroplanes. Edited By Steve W-O on 01/04/2012 07:36:41 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Flyer Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Posted by Steve W-O on 01/04/2012 07:17:22: It appears to be true. According to a report this morning, any transmitter that is not CE marked, and is not used with a matching CE marked receiver, and for which you can not show a valid receipt of purchase from a UK dealer is illegal. It appears that have been visiting known flying fields and checking. as the picture shows. Cut out the faces and aeroplanes. Edited By Steve W-O on 01/04/2012 07:36:41 LOL....................first one of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne drinkwater Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 In my experience insurance is a numbers game. If you can afford to replace it why insure ? with things like motor vehicle it is a no brainer you may not thing your old banger worth insuring but hit a ferrari and all of a sudden it is worth insuring. Here in New Zealand vehicle insurance is not mandatory and only about 60% of drivers have insurance .As regard model insurance being a MZMAA member we are covered with a liability insurance in our annual membership fees , but this insurance only covers you when flying at an approved model flying site, so when soaring at the beach or as our club does from time to time putting on a mini display at a school fete or fair you are not covered its just a chance you have to accept. I have heard many times the insurace company will try anything to get out of paying up anyway, so have very little faith in them. When flying models I try to stick by two rules that a local model club have 1 Enjoy yourself 2 Dont be an idiot Works for us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Wayne I understand the sentiment behind your last remark and would broadly endorse it. But I would not like folks to see it as an alternative philosphy to getting insurance. The fact remains that, in my view, anyone who flys a model aeroplane without adequete indemnity insurance is taking an enormous and completely unnecessary risk. I'm sure you would agree. If you have an accident and you are found to be liable - and as none of us are perfect that could happen to anyone including those of us that fully subscribe to the "have fun don't do any daft" philosophy - then the financial consequencies for you personally could be horrendous. They could run into literally millions of pounds. If you are insured - via the BMFA or some other reputable source - then someone else will shoulder all the bills. If you're not then all the costs - legal and any compensation awarded - will be a personal liability on you. How much is your house worth? You may have to find out quickly! Surely its a "no brainer" for £31 a year? Regarding the behaviour of insurance companies my distinct impression - from those cases where BMFA members have been unfortunate enough to have to submit claims - is that our insurers have acted honourably and wrote out the cheque - on a few occassions a very big cheque. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avtur Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 22/04/2012 15:32:25: Regarding the behaviour of insurance companies my distinct impression - from those cases where BMFA members have been unfortunate enough to have to submit claims - is that our insurers have acted honourably and wrote out the cheque - on a few occassions a very big cheque. BEB That's a very good point, is there any 'public' information about such incidents, although very rare I'm sure the circumstances of such incidents would be surprisingly familiar, might be a good if they could be shared to show how important it is to be insured. Also, given the status of this forum, shouldn't it be possible for someone to contact the BMFA and get a definitive answer about requirements for CE or otherwise on radio equipment; and possibly other day to day scenarios where things could go wrong and result in a claim. e.g. previously reliaible model becomes unresponsive in flight, goes OOS, crashes on a nearby road, motorway etc etc ... and causes an accident ... covered or not ?? Hopefully the answer is yes, but if there is any small print that would invalidate cover then perhaps we should know about it ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spice Cat Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Two quick questions as some English Law is built around 'stated cases'. Has anyone ever been prosecuted for having non CE approved equipment? Has the BMFA insurance ever refused a claim on the grounds of non certified equipment? Like the picture by the way. Apparently the story goes that the cars were purchased in white and sky blue and the doors were switched around to save the cost of a respray. Thinking outside the box at its best. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hargreaves - Moderator Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 I think you will find that nearly all the clone Rxs are CE approved & marked anyway.....as I understand it, it would be illegal for a retailer in the UK (or Europe for that matter) to sell a piece of electrical equipment that wasn't CE marked.....Given that the clone Rxs are available via UK retailers we can be pretty certain they are CE marked & approved. Regarding BEBs comment about insurance I couldn't agree more.....the potential liability is huge.....people have sadly been killed after being hit by a model aeroplane & if you as the pilot were found to be at fault the bill could run into millions which would tie you up for the rest of your life..... For £31 a year its a no-brainer surely.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Hi Spice Cat, as has been said this has been the topic of some very long (very very long!) previous threads. If you have a week or two to spare you will probably find them with the aid of the search engine. But don't blame me if you lose the will to live halfway through! The long and short is - it is not illegal to use non-CE marked kit - in any sphere of life. The legal responsibility for CE marking rests with the manufacturer, if he's in the EU, or the person that imported the kit (with the intention of commercially selling it) if its made outside the EU. It is illegal I believe to sell (commercially - not privately) non-CE marked kit in the EU. As far as I am aware this has never been a matter of contention in any insurance claim - but I emphasise that is only as far as I am aware. Though I would point out that BMFA do council against the use of non-CE marked equipment. But as Martin says - the insurance is there for when we "get it wrong" - ie the accident is our fault. Also it would be very hard to establish that an accident was attributable to an Rx being non-CE marked. Just because an Rx is not CE marked does not of course mean that it doesn't meet all of the requirements - it may indeed be fully compliant but just not had the paperwork done. So, the answer to your question, as far as I can make out, is - no you are not breaking any law and you are perdectly entitled to use them. Final point, Do I use them? No. BEB PS Avtur - I believe that BMFA have a policy not to contribute officially to any forum. Having said that there are members of this forum who are "closely connected" with BMFA at fairly central and senior levels. Now obviously anything they say on here would of course be a purely personal view and they are not in any way speaking for BMFA, but I think we can assume that their view would be broadly "in-line" with BMFA thinking on any issue Plus of course, if you are ever unsure, I know that Manny at BMFA is always happy to take questions emailed to him regarding the insurance and give you an official answer as it were.. Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 23/04/2012 10:26:40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ P Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 It is interesting that all of the posts are opinion and conjecture! Unfortunately I'm someone who has had to make a claim. A couple of years ago my model crashed and caused some damage, fortunately no one was injured. I made a claim for the damage, filled in a form sent it to the BMFA insurance company had 1 letter back to clarity some terminology I'd used and that was that. Just the same as when you have an accident in your car. The insurance companies dealt directly with each other. The best £31 I've ever spent not only for covering the expense but also the piece of mind. You always assume its never going to happen to you. As someone said above, a no brainer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spice Cat Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Thanks you for replying BEB, I do use Orange Rx's bought in this country in my smaller models but that was only after seeing many others fly on them without problems. Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Posted by Russ P on 23/04/2012 11:00:24: It is interesting that all of the posts are opinion and conjecture! Unfortunately I'm someone who has had to make a claim. A couple of years ago my model crashed and caused some damage, fortunately no one was injured. I made a claim for the damage, filled in a form sent it to the BMFA insurance company had 1 letter back to clarity some terminology I'd used and that was that. Just the same as when you have an accident in your car. The insurance companies dealt directly with each other. The best £31 I've ever spent not only for covering the expense but also the piece of mind. You always assume its never going to happen to you. As someone said above, a no brainer! Opinion and conjecture in my case, backed up by a presentation by the insurer at a BMFA Chairman's conference and communications with Manny Williamson.... Curiously, the only case I've any first hand knowledge of involved another flyer called Russell - perhaps the BMFA should increase the premiums for those sharing your name! The claim from another club member whose car was damaged was settled with little or no fuss. A week or two later I discovered a problem with "our" Russell's Futaba transmitter due to a dry joint on the crystal holder which I suspect was the cause of the accident so even buying branded CE equipment is no absolute guarantee of reliability. I agree 100% with your last point! Edited By Martin Harris on 23/04/2012 11:51:07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hargreaves - Moderator Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 There was a thread on here a while ago about a club that had banned the use of "clone" receivers.....a very draconian step in my view.... Martins post reminds us that every time we fly we rely on literally thousands of components doing their job correctly. From the components in the radio to that dodgy firewall joint you filled with epoxy & crossed your fingers..... Based on purely anecdotal evidence I would think the cause of most crashes is the nut that holds the sticks.....ie the pilot... There can be no absolute guarantee of reliability...all we can do is minimise the risks.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daithi O Buitigh Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 There seems to be a lot of confusion as to what the 'CE' marks actually mean. This is from the Directive: "...The EMC Directive first limits electromagnetic emissions of equipment in order to ensure that, when used as intended, such equipment does not disturb radio and telecommunication as well as other equipment. The Directive also governs the immunity of such equipment to interference and seeks to ensure that this equipment is not disturbed by radio emissions when used as intended..." In short - all it is is certification that it's not going to cause interference (and in case anyone thinks differently, a radio receiver DOES actually transmit a very weak signal - that's how the TV detector vans work). It also stiupulates that it has to be relatively immune to outside interference (which would cover receivers more than transmitters). A lot of years ago, a certain well-known brand of TV had to pull a lot of models back for modification because they were very susceptible to interference The Radio Investigation Service of the DTI btw takes a very dim view of non-CE certified transmitters and does have the power to prosecute (and sieze the equipment) for non-compliance with regulations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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