Arron Davison Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Right then, this weekend will be the start of my first kit build! I have built my building table, got all my glues and most of my tools. I must admit im really excited xmas has come early this year!!! As you can see my first project is the flair junior 60 a lovely old girl. Hopefully my 2 young children can learn to fly with this to. Pictures to follow after the weekend wish me luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymaz Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 When you build the fuselage I found that the wing incedence was too much. I had to pack up the rear of the wing seat on the fus by 1.5 cm. You may find you need to do the same. Though mine was a Ben Buckle Kit, anyway be aware of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 hello arron..thats the one i have---a fine model--you'll need 8 oz of lead in the front prob...check out the nearest church roof(joke mods) ....... depending what you power it with...mine has a 30 4st in it.....fire away with as many q's as you need to ..... ken anderson...JNR 60 dept ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 If you reduce the wing incidence that also reduces the downthrust, better to lower the tailplane TE or leave as designed & correct using elevator. Mine flew very well for about 18 years with permanent down elevator trim. I built mine (Flair version) with the design incidences but moved the cg rearwards in small increments during several test flights until it ended 1.4" behind the design position. It was built with a number of mods including concealed plastic screw wing fixing, removeable tail, removeable engine plate, inverted engine, pull/pull controls & a provision to change from wheels to floats. It's been languishing in the loft for about 8years now awaiting to be re-furbed & converted to electric when I get a round tuit - this winter perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arron Davison Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 Thanks guys its good to no i can ask questions if i get stuck!!! There great tips there thank you i will keep in mind. Ken that junior 60 in the picture is absolutely gorgeous if mine comes out half as good as that i will be a happy man!!!! I will be asking you lots of questions when it comes to covering and painting mine that job on yours is fantastic!!! Im also looking to put the 30 4stroke up front, cant decide which one though??? Edited By Arron Davison on 28/09/2012 18:11:43 Edited By Arron Davison on 28/09/2012 18:14:59 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Foreman Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Ken, How do you go about getting that pattern on the wing ? Is it paint or iron-on trim ? Robert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arron Davison Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 Progress so far. And a couple of questions. Edited By Arron Davison on 30/09/2012 15:12:06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arron Davison Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 As you can see there is a big gap all the way along the rear spar and ribs. In the instructions it said to pin the rear spar down as well as the front lower spar and the rear trailing edge then glue this all together. On the plan it shows a side view of the completed wing and every thing is flush and follows the contours of the ribs? When i glue this do i un pin the rear spar and glue it up in position or am i missing something here????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Cantwell Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 its got to be a typo, both spars are not home in the wing slots, the front spar also has a gap under it, get the side view, draw a line under the high spots at the front and rear of the rib, then measure up to the front and back spar, cut packing pieces, and put the spars on the top of these, then put the ribs on and glue with aliphatic glue, put the rib over the side view first, and chck all is the same, just a mention about these vintage models, they have undercambered high lift sections, and over the top wing incidence, they where designed in an age when there was not radio, they were intended to spiral up, cut the engine, and glide down in a circle, the increased wing incidence would enable them to get up there fast, and come down slowly i would have NO hesitation in altering both the wing shape, and the incidence, but deffo the incidence, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Gates Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Looking at the picture you have posted, I would pack up both the front and rear spars since neither are sitting in their respective slots properly. The front spar looks like it needs a little packing at the rear to get the alignment correct where as the rear spar needs lifting all the way along. I would use some scrap balsa positioned along the spar placed in the gaps between the ribs so there is no chance of glueing the packing to the rib / spar joint. Before you add the packing under the rear spar I would get the rear of the ribs pinned down to the TE / building board Edited By Andy Gates on 30/09/2012 15:47:45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 hello arron-sort out the spar as alan and andy have said...the finish on mine is painted on... ken anderson ne..1 JNR 60 dept....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arron Davison Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 This is how it should look! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arron Davison Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 Thanks for your support guys it really is appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Posted by Alan Cantwell on 30/09/2012 15:40:27: just a mention about these vintage models, they have undercambered high lift sections, and over the top wing incidence, they where designed in an age when there was not radio, they were intended to spiral up, cut the engine, and glide down in a circle, the increased wing incidence would enable them to get up there fast, and come down slowly i would have NO hesitation in altering both the wing shape, and the incidence, but deffo the incidence, What alteration to the wing shape are you refering to Alan ? I can't think of any that might be of any benifit. The incidence wing designed into the Jnr 60 isn't excesive. As I said previously if the wing incidence were to be reduced it would at the same time reduce the engine downthrust. It makes more sense to drop the tailplane TE a little but since any pitching up can be controled by elevator the same result can be achieved by elevator down trim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braddock, VC Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Al probably means smoothing out the undercamber to clark y, personally I haven't in four iterations of the j 60 and you soon get to be a dab hand at holding in down when under full throttle conditions though my experience with the j 60 is that it's not tooooooo bad in that respect, mine were powered by an ED racer (1956) and the later ones (1980 on) had irvine 20 diesel, then converted to glow then to os26fs for two, then os 25 fp and finally os 20 fp in the latest. None of those engines are massively powerful thus not much downtrim needed unless the cg is a bit far back. Edited By Braddock, VC on 30/09/2012 17:42:55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braddock, VC Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Further to my earlier post, I also have a Southerner major (84" ws) and a 96" falcon which have the c of g at 65% and about 50% respectively, they are powered by an os 52 fs and laser 70 respectively and at low airspeed try to loop at full throttle unless great dabs of down are held in. At 1/2 throttle and less they are fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 If the cg is moved back & elevator trimmed accordingly it will need less downthrust. As mentioned previously mine has the cg moved 1.4" rearward & the elevators permenantly set with some down trim. It will do most basic +G aerobatics including inverted but it's like balancing on a ball because of the dihedral. Power was an old pre Schnuerl OS Max25. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Etheridge 1 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Well I built my KK New Junior 60 in 1962/3. This is the same version copied now by Flair. As I have mentioned elsewhere my Junior 60 still survives with the ED Racer installed. It has flown also with an Enya 19 which has exactly the some bearer / fixing lug spacing as the Racer. I built mine exactly as shown on the plan and on its first flight on Epsom Downs in 1963 I did not switch on the single channel radio and just gave it a hand launched free flight which it managed without any trim. However it turned to the left and on the instructions it suggested the flight should be trimmed straight with a small trim tab located on the sub fin. I turned the trim too much to the right with the result that on it's next flight also without the radio on it piled in! However with a fuselage repair it has since been OK especially with modern radio. That said I have flown it at Grantham during the evening free flight sessions at the Nationals a few years ago. It still has no elevator. I had no problems with the wing under-camber when I covered it with red nylon. I wonder how different it might be with Solartex covering or similar? The Racer has to be run flat out to get it in the air , but a 20/25 glow motor or a 19 diesel would cope a lot better. MJE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Mike, Solartex is fine. Mine was covered in plain (not white) & red Solartex with a coat of clear varnish when in 1986. The photos in the snow are just before it's maiden & the others were taken in 2002. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Davis Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Posted by Pat MC. It makes more sense to drop the tailplane TE a little but since any pitching up can be controled by elevator the same result can be achieved by elevator down trim. I have built two Junior 60s. The first one was built exactly to the Flair plan. I found it climbed all the time if you used more than moderate power. I had fitted a converted Irvine 20 car racing engine. With the second one I continued the line of the top longeron to the stern post thereby lifting the leading edge of the tailplane. It made some difference but bear in mind that the Junior 60 was a free-flight model, designed to climb under power and glide once the engine cut, it is not a WOT 4! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Posted by David Davis on 02/10/2012 05:24:16: With the second one I continued the line of the top longeron to the stern post thereby lifting the leading edge of the tailplane. It made some difference but bear in mind that the Junior 60 was a free-flight model, designed to climb under power and glide once the engine cut, it is not a WOT 4! That's the point I'm making. The difference between a Jnr60 flown F/F & one with with modern radio is that both motor & elevator control make it manageable. With the elevator set for cruise at moderate (even low) throttle it will climb nicely when throttle is opened. The rate of climb being easily adjusted by throttle. However if too much power is used with some down elevator to control the climb the Jnr60 starts to "dutch roll" as the speed increases above a certain level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 arron...i built mine as the plan and have no problems with it...fair enough you have to put in a click of down/up depending on the strength of the wind ........ but nothing untoward .... ken anderson ne.1 JNR 60 dept.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Foreman Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Posted by ken anderson. on 30/09/2012 16:04:20: hello arron-sort out the spar as alan and andy have said...the finish on mine is painted on... ken anderson ne..1 JNR 60 dept....... How did you mask for all those curved shapes ? I'm covering a Falcon in Solartex and would like to do a similar paint job with Solarlac or Flair Spectrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Cantwell Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 i would change the wing to a thick clark Y, then drop the angle of attack, so it didnt climb when power came on a poster on this thread described how his vintage models tried to loop when power was put on, this is because of the design of the things, and they where NOT designed to be steered around with radio control to fly them totally succesfully with radio, they would need zero tailplane angle, and a modest amount of engine downthrust, changed to a clark Ysection, which is still a lifting section, and 1-2-degrees of incidence on the wing, the super 60 was a redesign of the junior 60, and this is exacty what they did, but i mut admit, i too enjoy putt putting around with a true vintage model, left the way they are, and the foibles just accepted, i also feel that this type of model is far FAR from a succesfull trainer, they set no challenge, and teach nothing, the super 60 with ailerons is much better for this, these are, of course, just my opinions, i dont want to upset the tradition of vintage flying, i like them meself by the way Patmac.NICE junior 60 there, the best yet now then, fully symetrical, ailerons, flat wing, piped 40, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 hello robert-i just used a 'cup' and drew the scallops using a pencil and hand painted the model using black solarlac......dont tell anyone... ken anderson JNR 60 finishing dept... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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