Losing new people to this hobby

[Rex Keene]

I'd agree very much with CrosstownTee's post, as it matches my own experience, with the proviso that I made the terrible mistake of contacting and joining a local club.

Luckily I'm a thick skinned and bloody minded 50 year old who's had a life time of brushing off the small minded jobsworth's that seem to infest the club scene, usualy at commitee level. If I'd still have been under thirty I'd have smacked 'em, if I'd been under 15 I'd just have given up.

Buy something cheap enough to crash and learn on your own. Only join a club when you've enough self confidence to tell the little hitlers to be nice.

Edited By Rex Keene on 30/12/2012 00:52:46

Edited By David Ashby - RCME on 30/12/2012 06:58:36

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Keep an eye on the language in this thread please folks, thanks.

[Colin Bernard]

Interesting this, as after the AGM I actually wrote to the BMFA on a number of topics, one of which was the subject of this thread, suggesting that flyers could be provided to distributors and certain chain stores such as Maplin.

Unfortunately I have yet to have the benefit of even an acknowledgement, let alone a reply so I am not sure how receptive the BMFA are here.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Rex Keene on 30/12/2012 00:52:02:

brushing off the small minded jobsworth's that seem to infest the club scene,

"Infest the club scene" eh? Based on how much experience? One club?

Rex, I'm really sorry you had a negative experience with a club, as in all walks of life you get the odd "wrong 'uns". But please don't generalise it into applying widely based on one experience - that simply isn't fair or likely to be accurate.

I've been involved with and flown at many clubs and the vast majority are full of perfectly reasonable, friendly, people with the same interests as you and I. In my opinion they are by far the best route for the majority of beginners and offer a way to learn to fly without breaking lots of models.

BEB

[bouncebounce crunch]

I have been sneaking around a few Aussie clubs within 100 mile radius from my home, taking photos and talking to the natives and all i get is enthusiasm, enthusiasm, and willingness to have a yarn or show off their pride and joy, maybe talk about their radio system, and why they chose it . AND I LOVE IT. i bet others do too. HK was mentioned a few times but not as much as one would expect.

[Ian Jones]

Posted by Rex Keene on 30/12/2012 00:52:02:

I'd agree very much with CrosstownTee's post, as it matches my own experience, with the proviso that I made the terrible mistake of contacting and joining a local club.

Luckily I'm a thick skinned and bloody minded 50 year old who's had a life time of brushing off the small minded jobsworth's that seem to infest the club scene, usualy at commitee level. If I'd still have been under thirty I'd have smacked 'em, if I'd been under 15 I'd just have given up.

Buy something cheap enough to crash and learn on your own. Only join a club when you've enough self confidence to tell the little hitlers to be nice.

Edited By Rex Keene on 30/12/2012 00:52:46

Edited By David Ashby - RCME on 30/12/2012 06:58:36

You have obviously had a bad time but my own experience has been very different. Having been in about half a dozen clubs and and flown at many more I have found on the whole the experience is a good one. Of course there are sometimes things I haven't agreed with and I've said so.

I find flying on my own soon gets to be a lonely experience and I'd much rather have the benefit of others around me.

[flytilbroke]

Most of us know model flyers who "go it alone" although they appear to be much in the minority. Even more in the minority, thankfully, is the expierience and comment by Rex Keene. In my expierience clubs are what the individual makes of them,,, join in and enjoy and much help and friendship accrues.

The "Flyer" bit of paper is indeed a good idea as long a it relates from direct conversation I think. I have no idea has it worked when given out at the time of flying though as no-one came back Might have though as most enquiries were from out of the area Tourists.

[Masher]

I would also like to defend the clubs! As yet another old git who has fully embraced this hobby again after about 40 years of interuptions, joining a club has been the best thing I've done. I got friendly advice and support and free 1:1 training allowing me to progress quickly to pass the A test. I now am a member of 2 clubs which opens up even more support and like minded people to play with - plus the obvious flying facilities.

I have been "bounced" by over subscribed clubs in the past and not everyone you come across is perfect - just like work or any other club/society really but you don't have to love everybody for it it to be great! I have had a lot more jobsworth's in the classic car clubs I've been in - try turning up for your first meet with a chrome stripon upside down and see what happens

Just like LHS's, I think it all depends on the people involved. As I have retired and moved house in the last year, I've been trying out my LHS's with mixed results. I have 3 within 10 miles and 1 is great, 1 is good but not really geared to RC or aero then the biggest and most well established is terrible - guess which one I'll support! I tried hard in the big one - they had about 5 staff on duty some about my age and some in short trousers and the bad shop culture had severly captured all of them - absolutely don't deserve custom. It wasn't my fault either because I observed their appauling behaviour when an elderly lady came in looking for a present for a grandson - a perfect opportunity lost because of ignorant, could't care less staff............... whoops this wasn't supposed to be a moan!

[bouncebounce crunch]

just a little inspiration for newcomers.

[bouncebounce crunch]

thisis a popular one to inspire newcomers. But in truth the two video links are part of why we love this hobby and the ones that see this are the ones that stay.

[SkippyUK]

As an Ex club flyer who is now a 'travelling' lone flyer, I often stop and chew the cud whenever I see planes flying on my travels and can fully agree with BEB's experiences however me with my knowledge can join in the general chat where a newby would maybe struggle.

I've coached many scouts to complete the 3 circuits required for the Aviation Badge and some Mum's and Dad's have gone on to get some of these All-in-One plane kits which I have either maidened or repaired.

Have many of you actually tried to fly these planes? My experiences are that some fly pretty well but probably half are a challenge for an experienced flyer and need sometimes major adjustments out of the box which are not covered in the instructions which is why many only fly 10' and are collected with a black bin bag.

How many of you would recommend one of these models costing £35 - £50 when for a few £'s more you could recommend a far more sturdy and flyable solution.

If you were Argos or Maplin (to name only a few) would you want to add something for free that is an obsticle to the sale? - they are in the business of selling things, not promoting a hobby.

I may be a one man band now but when I am approached on the beach or dunes I do advise against these types of plane kits because while I make flying seem easy but we all know it isn't - that's why I give the fliers out.

I nearly always have a spare DX6i with me and a buddy lead and if anybody is still interested after seeing the flyer then I do a bit of coaching and let them have a go with either a Pitts or a Zagi - neither are the best trainers but are easy to keep aloft on a buddy system and it gives a bit of insight into how challenging it is to fly first time and I get as much enjoyment out of it as they do (maybe why I was a scout leader???).

I wonder how many people did learn to fly with the tough bouncable Zagi back in the 90's and noughties before these new delicate planes came along?.

Also, many of us and the BMFA would seem at odds with the might of HK's on-site videos.....

###SE5a### In the start of this video, how many people are along the flight line? and the major thing we and the BMFA want to promote is safety - anybody watching this video would think it fine to fly in a crowded park but we say don't do it!.

###Monocoupe### at approx 20 and 34 seconds in - avoid flying near power lines????

Most kits have the statutory Do's and Dont's in the manual but I know from experience that as soon as you say something that's at odds with the Internet then you've got a lost cause....

Sorry if some think this has gone off topic but I believe it's all in the mix.

I think the personal touch is far more effective than the regulatory approach so again 'IT IS UP TO US' whether it's as individuals or at club level.

[bouncebounce crunch]

It all is in the mix Skippy, ntT ntt nttt. (well thats how Skip talked on tv.)

The lucky newcomer to meet you with a buddy system setup ready to go. definately will send them down the right path.

Safety is always number one to me, and that is promoted on this site as well as the sister magazine. the let down is the lack of understanding how dangerous our machines can be and the major shopping chains are not helping by selling off the shelf flyers to people that have no intention of getting help or understanding how and why these machines fly.

[Jon Laughton]

Colin Watson - how about going into the shop and politely testing whether or not they are aware of the BMFA, regs for opersating rc models etc...? Perhaps offering to help?

Colin Bernard - in my experience this is the standard when communicating with BMFA HQ by snail mail. On the other hand when contacting Andy Symons through this forum or by email he is always quick to respond and very helpful!

Jon

[SkippyUK]

Bit off topic but a quick question for Andy Symons (if watching or anyone else who may have knowledge)

What is the ratio and numbers of BMFA 'Country' members to 'Club' members?

Just interested in light of above comments and don't want to start a war.......

[001]

As a very experienced flyer (55+ years) I have been in with some very good clubs and joined in with their social scene and helped many newcomers feel welcome with advice and trimming flights etc. And visited many other club fields with no problems.

Having moved house 16 months ago I joined a new club and was very surprised at the obstacles placed in my way and the general unfriendliness, almost antagonism shown, including a rude member clumsily trying to enforce a non-existent club rule . So I left. What chance a newcomer would have at that club I do not know.

Edited By Chris P. Bacon on 30/12/2012 15:08:00

[John Miller 4]

It is not only the help and advice you get from Club members as a newcomer (relativley), but the banter and ireverance shown when a small mistake is made resulting in repairs or even a bin bag being required. It all adds to the fun of a days flying, which is why we do it, especially when you are not on the receiving end of the mocking. I think it should be obligatory for club members to be adept at sarcasm.

[SkippyUK]

I've done 3 different fliers that I've given out as I hate the thought of people wasting the money and never trying again but the following websites have been included at various times;-

#So you want to fly RC# - I think this one is a good go at simply explaining the basics.

#Flying RC#

Of others I've seen ;-

This one had the right idea but fell at the first hurdle by doing aerobatics on the first circuit but at least someone tried.....

This one was OK until the No-win-no-fee adverts on section about insurance!!!

Maybe we should put the first one on a sticky in the newby section? - comments please.

{if it's already there - sorry!}

Skip

[John Privett]

Posted by SkippyUK on 30/12/2012 13:19:47:

What is the ratio and numbers of BMFA 'Country' members to 'Club' members?

Just interested in light of above comments and don't want to start a war.......

I don't think the numbers you get back in reply will actually answer the question I think you are really asking!

A "country member" isn't (necessarily) somebody who doesn't belong to a club. It is just somebody who has arranged their own BMFA membership directly. They may be a member of a club, or indeed of several clubs.

For instance our club ended the year with 261 members, of whom 80, or nearly a third, are BMFA country members. 65 had their membership through our club, the remaining 100+ had their BMFA membership through other clubs they also belong to.

[SkippyUK]

Hi John,

I know all of the above scenarios as I've been one of the country and club members but it was stated earlier that the lone flyer is very much a minority and if the ratio were to be high then maybe the lone flyer is not such a minority especially as some lone flyers may not have BMFA insurance anyway!!!.

I've found many flyers, both lone and in groups, who don't belong to a club as such but just fly together.

I suppose it is a sort of club but not affiliated.

I get the impression from some people that the lone flyer is somehow wrong and is doing the hobby a dis-service (maybe the idea that lone flyers are not insured!), but each to their own, it takes all sorts to make a world and as I said before, I don't want to start a war of words.

261 members - you must be in/near a large town or city to get that many - out in the sticks many clubs I've visited struggle to get above 50.

Skippy

[John Privett]

There are indeed many scenarios involving membership (or not) of clubs and BMFA which is why I was suggesting caution in interpreting any figures you might get. Based on my club the BMFA figures could lead you to think that 30% of our club members aren't members of any club and 44% are only members of another club! And taking non-affiliated clubs into account - their members may, or may not, be BMFA membes at all, and those who are might be country members or members through other clubs...

Our 261 members is probably a consequence of a number of factors. We have members who only fly free-flight (that's about 15% of the membership.) We're just south of London, but most significantly, not having any rent to pay our subs are low so we have a higher proportion of "long-distance" members than I guess most clubs do. These are non-local people with some link to the area who join so that when they're here - maybe only 2 or 3 times a year - they have somewhere to come and fly.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I have nothing against lone flyers - I don't understand the appeal, but as you say Skippy it takes all sorts!

Its not the experienced lone flyer with insurance that causes me any concern, its the easy availability of unsuitable models, bought by total beginers going it alone in completely unsuitable places, that I worry about!

BEB

[avtur]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 30/12/2012 22:34:37:

I have nothing against lone flyers - I don't understand the appeal, but as you say Skippy it takes all sorts!

Its not the experienced lone flyer with insurance that causes me any concern, its the easy availability of unsuitable models, bought by total beginers going it alone in completely unsuitable places, that I worry about!

BEB

BEB you are right to worry about that I do too .. I don't know what the answer is ... but let me offer a perspective from where I am in life at the moment ... I'm sorry this can't summarised in a few short words ...

I have been a club member on several occasions through my modelling life and for the most part it has been great fun and I fully endorse the benefits of club membership which have already been expressed here. Having said that I have also experienced the negative side of clubs, while it is not the norm I think it is only right to recognise that some clubs do not have 'open and forward looking' agendas; such clubs may serve their current membership well … but in the bigger picture of longevity … I'm not sure they serve the hobby well.

In this thread I am detecting a slightly negative tone towards lone flyers which is making me feel quite uncomfortable. At this moment in time I am not a member of a club … not for the want of trying; however I have certain other considerations in life which I have to put into perspective with a model club membership. The biggest single issue for me is working commitments, I am beginning to feel that I have to apologise for the fact that I work for a living, the nature of my work means I am on call 24-7; every week I spend at least a couple of nights away from home (my working patch being the entire UK including the Scottish Highlands and Islands), although I try to avoid it I do sometimes spend both Friday and Sunday evenings away from home, which makes for a very short weekend; and I have a wife, family and house to look after. The point being that time to join in with club activity is very limited and is a balance alongside my other commitments.

As a result I lone fly in a local park near home and lone fly on a beach in north wales at the weekends between March and October. Given my experience, I am a BMFA member, I am insured, I fully respect others around me and would never fly anywhere or in anyway that brings the hobby into disrepute … I know full well from my experiences that my activities are sometimes viewed by folks not familiar with our hobby, I would like to think that I am a good ambassador for the hobby in conversations I have with such passers by.

For all of those who advocate and enjoy club membership then I am really pleased for you; for other lone flyers … I fully understand your position. This a great hobby for us all to enjoy, but I'm afraid if anyone introduces a "my way is better than yours" philosophy … then I'm sorry but I'll take exception and disagree.

If you are in fortunate position where your life style, along with many other variables in life, allows you to enjoy the benefits of club membership then I'm very pleased for you … but I'm not in that position so please don't knock me for it … I'm sorry but I'm getting impression that some would … can I suggest the need for us all to be a bit more broad minded about this.

This forum runs under the banner of RCM&E which is undoubtedly the premier publication for our hobby in the UK, and has been for more years than most of us would care to remember. On that basis I would suggest that the views of folks on this forum have a certain 'credibility', obviously contributors recognise the status of this forum. I really hope that I am wrong in my perception that lone flyers are in some way, by some people, being marginalised.

In order to secure a solid future for our hobby we need to highlight and promote our common interests … not our differences.

[SkippyUK]

Avtur, you describe me to a tee.
Unfortunately also why I'm an ex scoutleader.

Let's just get back to flying topics and helping others enjoy it.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I totally agree withy you avtur, clubs are not for everyone, either because they like flying alone or perhaps, like you, their life circumstances don't allow it. And I have no problem with that - nor in my view should anyone else.

Interestingly, I detect the opposite trend - some of those who like fly alone being too quick to make generalisations about clubs and their nature and "warning" others to stay away. Too often based on very little actual experience of clubs.

But as I say, the experienced responsible lone flyer is not the problem. Its the totally inexperienced lone beginner with an unsuitable model that is the potential real problem.

Like you I don't know the solution is either. But I've been in a well known LMS in the North West (no names to save embarassment) and watched as they refused to sell a model to someone because they felt it would be irresponsible. The thing is of course that the same guy can go on the internet and buy the model no questions asked, and obviously there is no acceptable way of preventing that.

What about the person, completely without experience, who decides to buy a 1/3 scale petrol acrobat from ebay? Now at present this probably doesn't happen, but only because such models are very expensive and specialist so tend to go up for sale in places where the "newbie outsider" (with no advisor or connection) wouldn't know to look - eg BMFA Classified etc. But what if the price starts to fall, what will happen when there is more old ones about? Will we see them regularly on ebay? Will we see them being sold by "ebay dealers"? At the moment the market is effectively self regulated by knowledge, connections and price, but what if some or all of those barriers break down?

BEB

[Devcon1]

Hi Colin,

It sounds like a great opportunity to get some local club visibility in this shop you talk about, to expose so many people to "flying toys" strikes me as a huge positve, if it ignites something in a fraction of it's customer base then surely it must be a good thing.

We have to accept that the entry points into this wonderful hobby have changed in the same way we have seen things change,( ARTF's, 2.4Ghz, telemetry, cheap small servos etc, etc) otherwise we become dinosaurs.

Those youngsters with the flair and interest will have had a great start, just different to some of ours.

Kind Regards

John