Deans plug connector protocol?

[JohnnyB]

Hi Guys,

I'm just about to standardise all my electrical connections to the Deans type. But, before doing so,I was wondering if there is a standard protocol that is normally followed.

By this I mean for instance, which plug normally goes on the battery - male/female?? Which plug normally goes on the motor - male / female??

Of course there may not be a recognised 'protocol',but before I fully commit to this soldering programme I would just like to gather some opinions.

Looking forward to your comments and any suggestions you may like to make.

John.

[001]

Johnny, think mains electricity socket. The supply, in your case, battery will be female. The motor is then male.

That is because the socket protects the supply from shorting out.

[Pete B]

Female socket on battery, male plug on ESC (not motor, assuming it's brushless - use bullets there). The female socket will prevent possible shorting out as the pins are not exposed.

The convention is to have positive on the pin on the wider part of the plug, which goes crossways, and negative on the pin which runs lengthways on the plug.

Pete

[Bernie]

Female on the lipo ,what ever connector you use put female on the Batterie always.

[Alan Randall]

I am slowly converting my Deans to XT60s as I find they are easier to part and the Turnigy batteries usually come with them fitted.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Yes, the thought that came into my head on reading this was "why Deans" - they are not the easiest connector to use - either to solder or to separate.

BEB

[John Privett]

My thoughts too, BEB. My limited experience with Deans has mostly involved finding them infuriatingly difficult to unplug. Though I have been told that's mostly a problem with 'fake' Deans, and the genuine ones separate more easily. But all my recent LiPos have arrived with XT60s already attached so that's what I currently (ooops, no pun intended!) use.

[Pete B]

Ah, I omitted to mention the fact that I've converted to XT60's in my post above.... for all the aforesaid reasons.

Having said that, the XT60's can be a bit tight in some instances......

Pete

[Erfolg]

One of the advantages of Deans where space is limited, such as small electrics, is that they are much more compact as an assembly than some others..

I am not convinced that Deans are more difficult than any others. The main issue seems to be the cable size with some larger Lipos, it is this that is the issue irrespective to the connector. The only viable solution for the hobbyist, is a heavy tipped soldering iron with a good wattage.

[avtur]

 

Sorry .. slight thread drift here but ...seems appropriate.

Maybe this is the subject of a future "poll" .... "which connections"

I currently use EC3 because most of my 'kit' is Parkzone ARTF ...

For me the biggest issue is soldering additional batteries etc ...

so which connector 'system' is the best/easist for soldering ...

and then which is most relaible for connection

and which is 'easist' to handle ...

 

Edited By avtur on 10/08/2013 22:18:35

[Pete B]

No sooner said than done, avtur.....

Pete

[John Privett]

Pete - that poll started just over a year ago.

Now a year is a long time in electric r/c, I wonder if the results would be different if it was run again now? (Hint, hint! )

[Erfolg]

John, I am sure you are correct, with respect as to the most commonly used plugs. I would expect that that XT60s are probably more frequently used than in the past, mainly because many Lipos now come with the plug.

However my most recent ly purchased Lio came with HXT 4mm. Rather surprisingly to me I spotted on Saturday, another modeller using these connectors. Why surprised, well, I stopped using these connectors some 5 years back. Why did I stop using them? Well. then they were expensive, difficult to find and above all very bulky due to their length.

I still see bullet connectors in use, which seem a accident waiting to happen, due to the lack of polarity, other than the colour coding on the cable, and potentially how they are arranged. Still I have seen this method go wrong.

I personally think the most important aspect of a plug system, is firstly, polarity protection, second ease of purchasing, thirdly cost and in last place soldering.

Soldering comes way down, as the issue is getting enough heat into the cable, the plugs themselves are easy. So it is having that big tipped high wattage soldering iron or a soldering gun, which work well on this less than sophisticated application. Plus i still use lead/tin cored solder.

[avtur]

Posted by Pete B - Moderator on 10/08/2013 23:06:14:

No sooner said than done, avtur.....

Pete

Ooops ... many thanks

[avtur]

Posted by Erfolg on 11/08/2013 13:35:43:

 

I personally think the most important aspect of a plug system, is firstly, polarity protection, second ease of purchasing, thirdly cost and in last place soldering.

In my list above it was my intention to place soldering at the top of the list. The consequence of a poorly soldered joint can be an 'in flight' failure.

Sure there are consequences to the other features you mention (which might lead to damage and/or failure) but that would most likely lead to a problem on the ground.

Most important, to me, is avoiding an 'in flight' failure ... just my humble 2p's worth.

Edited By avtur on 11/08/2013 13:53:23

[Erfolg]

AVTUR, I do not think the connector is the main issue with respect to soldering.

Now I have started to fly bigger models, I use more frequently 4s Lipos, which come with a pretty heavy cable. It is getting this hot, quickly, which is for me the issue.

Although not claiming to be an expert at soldering, I personally believe soldering successfully is dependant on a number of issues. Perhaps the obvious is that the parts to be soldered must be clean, free of oxide films. I guess an obvious prerequisite. I then always tin the parts to be soldered, with a generous coating. I personally use Pb/Tn solder, it melts a good 20C lower. The next phase is to assemble the components to be soldered. that is cable and connector. I use one of those cheap hands free, crocodile clip stands that come with a magnifying glass. Now I feel I am ready to start making the joint. I put my solder gun onto the cable, to get it hot, then after a few seconds towards the connector, by now I am expecting the solder to be melting on both the components and the multicore. I make sure that there is a smooth covering of solder across the two parts, on both sides. That way I feel confident the whole joint reached temperature. Withdraw the heat source and let cool, undisturbed. This last part can be important.

I do not think that a dry joint with connectors is excusable as with electronic components. The heat damage issue is far lower.

If your iron is not up to the job, it is perhaps worth the investment, in a man sized soldering iron, or solder gun, it is almost a case the bigger the better, but I guess you get my drift.

This is why soldering is a long way down my list of priorities, it is a given, whatever type of connector.

[avtur]

Erfolg,

Thanks for you reply, I do not doubt for one minute it was well intended and I assure you it is viewed as such; however from my perspective you have missed the point I wanted to make and perhaps you made some assumptions about where I am coming from that are not correct.

I will only make further comment because I believe that this is an important matter in relation to flight safety; in saying that I am not in any way questioning your position on flight safety.

I have all the correct equipment for soldering, currently 80W mains traditional, 100W mains ‘instant gun’ and a gas unit equivalent to 70W mains (all man enough I hope?). As a former LMS owner I have assembled ni-cad packs, fitted different connectors to batteries, motors, speed controllers et al … by way of service to my customers (in numbers I simply can’t recall). I am confident in my soldering ability, although I would not for one-minute want to come across as complacent. There in lies one of the reasons for my view on what is important regarding “electrical connectors”; the point is we can all make mistakes, and perhaps not get it quite right 100% of the time.

My concerns arise from the simple fact that a failed solder joint can result in an inflight failure and for that single reason soldered joints will always be a high priority for me.

You make some very valid points about other aspects of connectors, accidental reverse polarity, ease of use, cost … and there are probably other considerations as well, all of which can lead to various types of failure. However, for me, a poor solder joint that causes problems under load i.e. in the air, is the one that could lead to an out of control model … to me that is the one thing I want to avoid more than anything else. A shorted out battery pack, a reverse polarity connection can certainly cause damage (resulting in cost) but that will more than likely occur on the ground; to my way of thinking that is nothing compared with the possible consequences of an out of control model in flight.

The only reason I am labouring this point (if it sounds as though I am) is that I know there have been conversations here, on other model flight forums and down at the local field around connection failure. So going right back to my original comment I think it is very important that whatever connector system people adopt it should be ‘easy’ to get reliable results even if soldering skills are at an early stage.

[Phil Green]

Valid points well put Avtur, it is a fact that actual connector failures do occasionally happen.

I think Deans have a fundamental design flaw, caused by the 90 degree polarising angle, and that the problem is far worse in clones than in the originals.
Each female slot has a little extra width over the male pin, to allow easy insertion. If the negative happens to be inserted high in its slot, ie away from the pos by a few thou, its insertion friction is sufficient to prevent the pos spring exerting any pressure on the pos contact. For this reason I always insert pos first, then maintain a pressure towards the pos as the neg is inserted. Try it with a spare pair and you'll see what I mean.
With some cheap chinese Deans, you can deliberately hold the neg towards the top of its slot, push the plug home and often the pos either remains completely open circuit or is intermittently h/r.

We had a flyaway caused by an open-circuit Deans connector, which was later repeatable on the bench. (It was my lads Easy Cub and as an aside it made the best landing he'd ever done!).
Cheers
Phil

[Erfolg]

Phil it seems you are suggesting that there is an issue with Deans and or Deans type assemblies. This is the first I have heard of such an issue, although some have questioned the spring pressure. Again the same claim has been made with respect to bullet connectors.

What puzzles me a little is the scale of the issue if it were real? That is if it is real.

The issue of a dry joint becoming manifest whilst flying is something I have never observed. Of course it may happen, again how frequently. Most dry joints become apparent whilst handling, that is plugging in or removal.

I have had cables fatigue adjacent to the plug, where the soldered area meets the unsoldered cable, Mainly on bullets, perhaps one on Deans.

The ease of soldering has less to do with the design type of the connector than the weight of the cable. A issue again becoming more frequent as cable size goes up, is getting the cable into some bullet connectors, when the capacity of the connector is neared.

 

Edited By Erfolg on 12/08/2013 16:18:17

[Phil Green]

Posted by Erfolg on 12/08/2013 16:17:41:

Phil it seems you are suggesting that there is an issue with Deans and or Deans type assemblies. .. What puzzles me a little is the scale of the issue if it were real? That is if it is real.

Erfolg, did I read that correctly, are you saying I make this stuff up? If thats how my posts are interpreted then I'll bow out at this point. Carry on gentlemen.

Cheers

Phil

Edited By Phil Green on 12/08/2013 16:46:42

[PatMc]

Elflog I think you are out of order & owe Phil an apology over this.

I remember when Phil highlighted this problem (IIRC with photo evidence) in another forum. Because of his experience I was easily able to replicate the fault with some Deans that I had. Since then have relegated Deans connectors to non-essential workshop uses.

[Erfolg]

Patmac, I am staggered.

I would be careful in this age of litigation, if my understanding is you are suggesting that Deans plugs have a inherent design fault? Or manufacturing fault.

I would not like to be at the receiving end of any legal action by Deans, as if the assertion was shown to be untrue, the damages would make your eyes water.

I would urge caution, rash statements can be very damaging.

I would go as far as to say all the connectors are fit for purpose, within their specified rating and intended application.

[Pete B]

Erfolg, I think you are rather 'gilding the lily' when you interpret Phil's comments as claiming an inherent design fault. He's merely expressed an opinion, based on his experience, so it's quite unnecessary to start quoting 'legal action' - that is somewhat extreme, IMHO.

I don't think many of us doubt Phil G's credentials - he's a modeller/radio enthusiast of vast experience and I, for one, always take note of what he has to say.

Equally, I'd be surprised that any of us who have used Deans to any extent have not found the odd 'sloppy' connection and replaced them. It's no big deal, mechanical connections can and do wear out - and no-one could ever suggest, not even the manufacturers, that they are totally infallible.

Let's assume that your comments have been mis-interpreted and that you were not suggesting that Phil had invented this problem, shall we?

A clarification on your part would, I am sure, clear up this misunderstanding....and hopefully Phil will return to continue this discussion.

Pete

[Erfolg]

Pete

This is what has been written by

Phil

sic "I think Deans have a fundamental design flaw"

Now what do you think Deans would make of that statement.

I feel that my integrity has been impugned. As to misinterpretation, I believe that making such a statement, could easily lead to the threat or actual legal action.

[Pete B]

They'd certainly ignore it - we're a bunch of aeromodellers chatting on a forum, for goodness sake - and the day we can't express an inocuous opinion we might as well all give up......

I think you're being far too sensitive about this, TBH.

I'm sure I'll probably express dissatisfaction about a particular product at some stage, sooner or later, and I won't expect Court officials knocking on the door when I do......

Pete