john melia 1 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 wouldnt it be nice if someone could condense all this info and put it in a small book , something like pilots notes , any takers ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 I'm working on that John! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR 71 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 This is what happend to me a few weeks ago, i built an O/D 50" model to practise F3A, it is electric I had set everything up with the prop off switched everything off , put the prop back on, switch it all on again controls working opened the throttle and nothing happend. made sure the throttle was closed and i was stood behind the wing with the model on the bench disconnected the lipo then pluged it back in and bam !!! the motor was flat out, i instictivly grabbed the wing to hold on to it it just swung round and bit me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john melia 1 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Nice one Peter Posted by Peter Jenkins on 20/02/2014 19:12:52: I'm working on that John! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john melia 1 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 That looks nasty SR 71 , how many stiches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 Like I said, electric motors scare me so I treat them with very great respect. I also like to use a spark arrestor so that I can lightly touch the contacts between the ESC and the battery without plugging them in. The spark arrestor stops that frightening spark and crack and if anything misbehaves I can just relax my grip and it goes open circuit. But don't forget to have the model properly restrained at all times! As SR71 has shown, you can never afford to be distracted when dealing with a live electric motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR 71 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 No stitches as it had chopped the skin away 75mm long 10mm wide and 7mm deep The thing was the throttle was in the closed position ??? it had reversed itself in the transmiter somehow It is a futaba 14sg tx and i have heared since that fuaba can actuly do this if something is unplugged So be carefull out there Sorry Peter back on thread, i have a world Models Spot-On for practice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 Had to look up World Models Spot On - looks very handy. Hope the scars have healed and allow you to get out and practice in the lovely weather you have over there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR 71 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Yes the Spot-On is a good model i can recomend it to anyone who is looking to start, i have a Saito 120 in mine ( because i had one ) but i will be getting a OS 110 pumped as soon as funds are avaiable When you get to my age Peter you have a lot of scars from life this was only a small one compaired to some i have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"L"Plate Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I have in the past made an Acrowot with a lengthened nose and rear fuselage and reduced the dihedral by half. It improved the shape of my manoeuvres a fair bit compared to my previous Acrowot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Colman Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I will be flying my newly finished Sebart Angel S30e if and when the weather ever improves. The worst start to the year for flying opportunities in the seven years that I've lived here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 Why are “precision aerobatic” aircraft “different”? Well, the short answer is that they have been designed specifically to have as few bad flying characteristics as possible. For today’s schedules, aircraft are designed with a longer fuselage than wing span which helps when you are performing snap/flick manoeuvres. The reason for this is that there is less inertia in a shorter wing so it’s easier to start and stop the flick manoeuvre. They also have a fairly long tail moment arm. This makes the elevator more powerful but less twitchy. Think of a long lever with the fulcrum close to a large rock you are trying to move. You don’t have to use as much force as you would with a smaller lever and your control will be more precise as you tip the rock. Also, you get more effect from aerodynamic damping with a long tail moment although that also depends on the size of the tailplane. Control surfaces are also much smaller than the combined 3D/F3A airframes which tend to dominate the commercial market place. That also means the manufacturer sells fewer of these specialist aerobatic airframes and that puts up the price. Believe me, it is a price worth paying! Once you have flown a specialist F3A aerobatic aircraft you will be amazed at how easy it is to fly and how it flatters you when you fly it! The problem is that all the faults in flying are now down to you! And they are light! That’s one of the reasons that you don’t see very many own design or kit built aircraft these days. If you look at the weight saving devices – high level of laser cutting to trim excess wood, use of composites in high stress areas and the use of high quality jigs to ensure high levels of accuracy and repeatability and you can see why there are so few kit built aircraft being made available. You need a high level of skill to build a competitive F3A airframe. Almost ready to cover is usually as far as most folks go. Why not build your own? Classic Aerobatic Aircraft could compete well up to Intermediate but the lack of side area, compared with current designs, will disadvantage them a bit when Knife Edge flying is required. Also, they tend to have to be flown faster than is current practice – so what? I am sure they would fare well up to Masters at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 Some Examples of Precision Aerobatic Aircraft and Equipment So what’s available and how much are they. Well, they range in price from £125 for a 30 size to £500 for a full F3A 2 mtr size. The latter is an unusually low price for a 2 mtr airframe and may indicate either a run down of stock or else a genuinely low price. There are, of course, a much larger number of 2 meter F3A airframes which range from £1,200 to over £4,000 but for our purposes we don’t need to go there. You can have a highly competitive 50 size airframe – indeed the winner of the 2013 Masters Schedule league flew a SebArt Angel 50 and beat the opposition flying 2 mtr airframes. It really is a measure of how good is the pilot and how much practice he has put in. This is what I could find and thanks to Chris for helping out with some of the information. Apologies if I have missed anybody out – feel free to post if there are any genuine F3A airframes, available in the UK, that are missing. 30 Size I could only find 3: SebArt Angel 30 - £176 World Models Zen 30 - £135 IC power BJ Craft Monolog 30 - £125 Example motors are: Hacker A30 series ~ - £70 E Flite Power 32 - £63 Turnigy G32 - £20 Example ESCs are: Jeti Spin Pro 55 - £72 Turnigy SS Series 60-70A Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 01/03/2014 21:45:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 More Examples 50 Size Quite a few to choose from here. These are much better in windy conditions than the 30 size as they are heavier. As you would expect, this is a very popular size and you can’t go far wrong by cutting your teeth on one of these. SebArt Wind S 50 - £230 – replaced the Angel but not as good SebArt Angel 50 - £214 – very impressive –elec power (IC conversion kit avail) SebArt Miss Wind 50 - £290 – best of the SebArt 50 size airframes Extreme Flight Vanquish 48 - £190 BJ Craft Monolog 70 - £180 – unusually offers IC or electric options in the box. Winners Axiome 70 EP - £246 – based on CPLR’s World Champs winner World Models Super Taiji - £150 electric power only Kyosho Osmose 70 - £178 – may still be available in IC and electric Scaled down version of CPLR’s 2nd placer in 2007 Example electric motors (you will no doubt have your own ideas on IC power) Hacker A50 14s for 5s or the hacker A50 16 on 6s – between £110 and £125 AXi 4120/20 £110 Hyperion 4025 16 £105 Eflight power 60 £100 Turnigy 5055 380kv £35 Turnigy G60 £38 Example ESCs Jeti Spin Pro 66 Opto £80 – NB any ESC with Opto needs a separate Rx Batt. Jeti Advance Pro 70 SB £66 Turnigy kForce 70A £47 Turnigy SS Series 60-70A £12 Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 01/03/2014 21:47:28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 More Examples 2 110/120 Size Typically, these are 90% of the full 2 mtr F3A design and usually well under half their price – they fly well and so make an excellent platform that can be flown up to and including the FAI schedule: SebArt Wind S 110 - £420 SebArt Mythos 125 - £478 World Models Zen 120 - £387 BJ Craft Monolog 110 - £299 - has option for IC or electric power BJ Craft Composite 120 - £700 (these are composite fuselage/wood wing) Example motors/ESC Hacker A50-16L V2 - £142 AXi 4130/20 - £114 Turnigy G110 - £50 amazing value Example ESCs Hacker X 80 Opto Pro 3D - £138 Jeti Advance Pro Opto - £100 Turnigy DLux 80hv - £53 amazing value Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 01/03/2014 21:49:44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 More Examples 3 2 mtr Size (for info only!)>> Extreme Flight Vanquish - £500 – one came 50th in the recent World Champs! This is an amazing price for a full 2 mtr airframe BJ Craft Monolog 2 m -£619 - has option for IC or electric power Typical motors/ESC Hacker C50-13XL Acro 6,7:1 - £580 HYK C50 14xl v2 - £330 AXi 5325/24 - £187 Turnigy G160 - £53 amazing value Typical ESC Hacker MasterSpin 99 Opto - £278 looks very like the Jeti 99 Jeti Spin Pro 99 Opto - £165 - a very popular F3A ESC Turnigy DLux 80 hv Opto - £53 amazing value Servos The main issue here is the ability of the servo to centre consistently. Some makes are consistently better than others in this respect. It is hard to look past Futaba and JR but the MKS 9660a is a best kept secret and the digital Spektrum 821 (based on the JR DS589), the JR DS 589, JR DS 599 are all around £20 or so. This is the one area where it pays to buy the best you can afford. A really good servo can transform the way your aircraft performs as regards accuracy. It doesn’t have to be a very fast servo, it just needs to centre consistently from either direction. Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 01/03/2014 21:52:11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 More Examples 4 Budget Lipos Haiyin Zippy compact Gens Ace Rhino Loong max These are the sites where I found most of the equipment listed above. There are, of course, other sites with similar products but here’s your starter for ten.>> For BJ Craft - Bondaero SebArt Importers/Hacker motor/Hacker ESC – Area 51 Distribution For SebArt – Kings Lynn Models For Extreme Flight – West London Models World Models Zen/servos – Steve Webb AXi Motors/Jeti ESC - Electricwingman Hacker motor/Hacker ESC and other F3A supplies - Dumfries Model Flying Turnigy motors/ESC/LiPos - Hobby King Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 01/03/2014 21:53:56 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masher Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Peter Thanks for continuing to provide such good and in depth information. This has to be one of the best ever threads packed with valuable guidance and feedback. I am hoping that other experts will add to this list with (a) suitable or favourite IC engine choices (b) classic or retro alternative models I am building up interest in improving my aerobatics skills and whilst starting with existing models, I have joined the UKCAA because I think I will enjoy the retro models Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 Masher - Glad you are still finding this thread worth reading. As regards IC engine recommendations, I have to say that I greatly recommend the Irvine 53 Mk2 fitted with a throttle pipe. Sadly, of course, you can't buy a new Irvine 53 anymore. However, they come up from time to time on the For Sale bulletins and I've managed to get 2 spare ones! The performance with a pipe equals the equivalent electric motor and when combined with something like a SebArt Angel or Miss Wind will give you a great flying aerobat. However, there are many great flying classic airframes and there is the ever successful Gangster (63 lite) from Mick Reeves. An Irvine 53 Mk 2 without pipe will give that a great performance. You can fly classic aerobats in today's F3A competitions as I suspect that until you get to Masters level you will not be handicapped by the need for tall fuselages to provide better KE performance. There is certainly room in the entry class, Clubman, for almost any aerobatic aeroplane. I've seen a Joker being flown with great accuracy in a Clubman competition. A properly trimmed Acrowot would do well. It is a misnomer, as you will have seen above, that you need to spend multi thousands to enter today's F3A competitions. If you want to go on to compete at International level then that's a different matter. What is clear though is that a specialist aerobatic design will fly very much better than a general sports aerobat and doesn't need to cost a great deal more. See if you can get some stick time on a specialist aerobatic model and you'll see what I mean. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"L"Plate Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Hi, I know the Irvine 53 is not available, I have used the Just Engines J'en 57 as an alternative with throttle pipe and found it to be a good engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masher Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Thanks Peter Believe it or not, I recently acquired a very neatly built, unflown Gangster Lite and already have a spare Irvine 53 in my stock. Looks like I have my first set up sorted! Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin McIntosh Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Hi Peter, I would really like to try one of these deep fuselage models but all clubmates who possess them fly on mode 2 which is alien to me. Could you kindly specify in general which (advanced) manoeuvres require this type of model? I would be very interested to find out. On another note, I would recommend anyone starting up with this discipline to attend a UKCAA meeting where you can chat to people just doing the basic stuff and learn a lot in a friendly atmosphere. Martin Mc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 Hi Martin, I was thinking of the Fig M in the last FAI P schedule. That required a half loop with integrated roll to join the first stall turn to the second one. Having a deep fuselage model for this is a definite advantage. I was thinking of any combined rolling and looping manoeuvre where at one stage in the proceedings you are relying on fuselage generated lift to keep the aircraft on track. Also, anything that has significant KE flight and requires a KE loop or part thereof. The current F schedule has these as well as 2 snaps in opposite directions from KE flight. You are now about to tell me that any decent pilot of yesteryear can do these with their eyes shut! I think you make a good point about attending UKCAA meetings to learn about basics. An alternative is to attend a New Pilot Open Day, supported by the GBR/CAA, to learn how to fly aerobatic manoeuvres with experienced F3A pilots as mentors. I've now run 2 in East Anglia and am scheduled to run the third this April. I will admit that they are a bit thin on the ground at the moment. I'll be posting on this shortly to I'll save the details till then. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 Martin, I forgot to mention that if you can buddy your Tx with your friends Tx it doesn't matter which mode you fly on which Tx. I've buddied a mate of mine, both flying JR, he is a Mode 1 flier and I a Mode 2. Worked fine. So, why don't you see if you can get your hands on one their models using that technique? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin McIntosh Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Cos most of them do not fly with JR, for another unknown reason! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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