Ever wanted to get into or improve your aerobatics?

[Pat (rActive) Harbord]

Following. Need to schedule some practice time in before I start asking questions

great thread

[Martyn K]

I am following as well. I am puzzzled though how 'immediately' is measured or judged because you cant really start a roll until a half loop is finished yet you still have momentum to deal with. I really need to watch someone who knows what they are doing... Please carry on though, this is really useful stuff for us wannabee pattern pilots.

Martyn

[Martin McIntosh]

I too am watching this like a hawk.

The double Immelman was originally started from the bottom but it does not make much difference since the difficulty with the top roll is the same in each case. Switching to high rate aileron at that point may help.

Keep it going Peter, I once threatened to discontinue a build thread since the replies became few but was soon reminded that there were lots of followers who did not wish to post.

Not sure about all the wind correction bits although they become important after a novice has mastered the basic manoeuvres.

 

Martin

Edited By Martin McIntosh on 23/01/2014 23:08:38

[Max50]

Same as karl. Still watching but haven't been flying for weeks. I think i'm hybernating.

[Steve Colman]

I'm still here too, reading and learning.

Steve.

[Colin Carpenter]

Please continue Peter ! Watching and trying to take it all in.

Colin

["L"Plate]

Well there you go Peter a lot a watching so you know you are helping a lot of pilots out, even if it is just to have more fun or to help them pass their "B" test or finally have a go at competition.

I am just reading the posts, as I know that a lot of what I have been told in the past is either wrong or out of date and my experience is more based on full size, which just seems to muddy the water.

Keep going, and good luck with the GBR/CAA NPOD at Newmarket in April, if it was like the last one you did it will be great for all the pilots that attend.

[Martyn K]

Posted by Peter Jenkins on 23/01/2014 21:04:27:

Split S (half roll and half loop),

This is the opposite to an Immelman. The Split S is a half roll followed immediately by a half loop. Again, you can be asked to fly a full roll before commencing the half loop and the half loop can also be a half bunt.

Hi Peter

I may have missed this, but in the Split S diagram, what is the meaning of the red circles?

Martyn

[Mr.B.]

I'm still lurking and reading with great interest. Good stuff.

[Peter Jenkins]

Thanks to those who posted and pleased that my efforts are going down OK - shame about the weather!

Couple of points which will answer the questions raised by Martyn K. In aerobatics you are required to fly a line before and a line after your manoeuvre. The line is a bit of straight flight not necessary level as it could be in a 45 deg manoeuvre. The term immediate means that there is no line before the second manoeuvre. So, in the case of the Immelman, as soon as you have reached the horizontal position you must roll without any pause. For the Split S, again as soon as you have finished the half roll, you commence the half loop without pausing.

Martin M is, as ever, spot on with his observation regarding wind correction. Don't bother till you have managed to fly the manoeuvre and feel comfortable with flying it and it looks like the one in the diagram! Then bring in wind correction but you will find that it is quite hard work. Do persevere, however, as the end result with blow your mates at the patch away and you can just say, crosswind, what crosswind!

Now, apologies for the Split S diagram, I picked the wrong one to add! The red circles are the judges reference points in the presentation I'm nicking these from. The one I should have used is this one:

The New Pilot Open Day to which Algy refers in his post, is open primarily to those pilots in the East Anglia Area. I am sending a notice to all Club Secretaries to announce the event. If you wish to know more either badger your Club Sec or PM me.

Edited By Peter Jenkins on 24/01/2014 11:54:30

[cymaz]

Following with interest.

Good thing to practice when everyone is out flying next ( though you need a bit of room to do it) is constant turn rounds. Fly straight and level up and down just beyond your strip do any turn round and come back on exactly the same line and height. Turn rounds can be 1/2 Cuban, Immelman, split s, stall turn. Anything you like.

Sounds easy but try it. Great for concentrating the little grey cells but very satisfying if you get several strung together.

[Peter Jenkins]

Cymaz

You are so right. I sometimes devote two flights to just flying the line to try and get myself back into the groove - assuming that there had ever been a groove in the first place! It is both maddening, and very good for you.

[andyh]

Posted by Peter Jenkins on 13/01/2014 00:24:09:

The other problem you might encounter is the aircraft yawing in the direction you applied rudder....

I assume you meant *rolling*?

I'm really enjoying the thread  it's waaaay beyond my skill level at the moment, but definitely something to aspire to

what would really help me, would be a good youtube/vimeo/etc video of a well-flown pattern schedule, not necessarily a prescribed comp schedule, but something to illustrate the precision & flowing nature of the discipline

thanks

Andy

Edited By andyh on 25/01/2014 03:15:23

[cymaz]

Andyh,try and see it in the field for yourself. Video doesn't really do precision aerobatics justice, especially the constant speeds achieved up/down wind legs and on climbs and dives.

BTW I thought rudder induced yaw, but I may be corrected.

[Old John B]

I found this very interesting but according to the many books I have read about the first world war and it's pilots, and also a first world war pilot who flew SE 5's,( About thirty years ago my son and I were flying on the dunes at Perranporth, he was interested and came and chatted to us and told us many stories.) He said that Immelman could not have done the manoeuvre that today we all call the Immelman as his plane wasn't capable of it. He said that Immelman would dive down on his opponent, climb, if he got past the attacked aircraft would apply full rudder., the aircraft woud yaw and face the other way and put him in a commanding position.

I have always thought that it sounded like a stall turn.

I just threw this in and wondered if anyone else has heard about it, I think it could be right as according to the books I have read Immelman flew an Eindekker and that used wing warping and it would have been difficult for him to do the manoeuvre that we know today. Anyway, be interesting to see if anyone else has heard this

[Peter Jenkins]

Andyh - well picked up! You are quite right, I meant that with application of rudder the aircraft would, in addition to yawing, sometimes roll in the direction of the applied rudder. I then go on to suggest using opposite aileron (to the rudder applied) to prevent this unwanted roll.

I'll try and find some video of F3A aerobatics but usually they are either of the FAI schedules or else, for lesser ones, the flying is not really up to demonstration standard. If I find something suitable, I'll stick the link onto this thread. Cymaz is right, it is very difficult to do anything like justice to modern F3A aerobatics unless you see them for real.

Old John B - following your comment, I did a little bit of research (if using Google can be described as such!) and could not find a definitive description of the original Immelman. One drawing showed a wingover rather than a half loop and half roll, another description alluded to a stall turn. The latter is, I believe, plain wrong as it would have presented a stationary target to the aircraft being attacked. You will not find stall turns in combat manoeuvres - indeed most air combat owes nothing to pure aerobatics other than the general shape being performed since purity of shape merely gives predictability to your opponent on where he can next nail you! Height and speed were quickly identified as the key advantages in air battle and this held true up to the introduction of air to air missiles which could be fired from almost any aspect. Anyway, that's another story so I'll skip back to model aeroplane precision aerobatics where the Immelman is defined as a half loop followed by a half roll.

Peter

[Peter Jenkins]

Mods - please could you make the following alteration to my post on this thread of 13/01/2014 00:24:09

The fourth paragraph, first line, replace the word yawing with rolling.

Thanks

Peter

[Ultymate]

Here's an IMAC training video of last year's Sportsmans schedule which may help some

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9qWPLEVJNs#t=45

Edited By Ultymate on 25/01/2014 15:51:37

Edited By Ultymate on 25/01/2014 15:52:38

Edited By Ultymate on 25/01/2014 16:00:43

["L"Plate]

Looks more complex that the GBR/CAA "Clubman"! It was good to see the Aresti diagrams along with the aircraft flying it.

[Peter Jenkins]

OK, I’ve had a trawl around YouTube and I’ve gone back to the GBR/CAA site for a flight of the Clubman Schedule. This is flown on a simulator but does have guidance lines so you can see where you are when you can’t see the ground! The video has each manoeuvre titled so I won’t bore you with the manoeuvre descriptions here.

= LINK =

When I was searching YouTube I came across an interview with the then 6 times World Aerobatic Champion – Christophe Payant le Roux or CPLR. Since then, CPLR has become World Champion for the 7^th time last year in South Africa. You may find this interview by another brilliant pilot, Donatas Pazuolis, interesting especially when CPLR discusses how he alters the design of his aircraft to meet specific conditions and about how much he practises.

= LINK =

And, if you want to see the great man in action, HERE he is flying the Preliminary Schedule P13. The manoeuvres are below (the K refers to the difficulty factor and is used to multiply the manoeuvre score (0 to 10) to arrive at the total score for that manoeuvre:

P-13.01 Half Clover Leaf with horizontal roll ....... K 3

P-13.02 Stall Turn with ¼ roll up, ¼ roll down .....K 3

P-13.03 Roll Combination with consecutive three ¼ rolls, three ¼ rolls in opposite direction .K 4

P-13.04 Half Square Loop with consecutive two ½ rolls in opposite directions ....K 3

P-13.05 Triangle with roll in each line ..................K 4

P-13.06 Split S with roll .......................................K 2

P-13.07 45° Upline with 1 ½ snap roll ................K 5

P-13.08 Reverse Top Hat with ¼ roll down, ¾ roll up ..........K 4

P-13.09 Spin with 2 ½ turns, 2 ½ turns in opposite direction.....K 4

P-13.10 Pull-Push-Pull Humpty-Bump with ¼ roll up, ¼ roll down (Option: Consecutive two ¼ rolls up) ..K 3

P-13.11 Cuban 8 with integrated rolls on top 90° of both part loops. ..........K 5

P-13.12 ½ Loop ...................K 1

P-13.13 Square Loop with ½ roll in each line ......K 5

P-13.14 Figure 9 with consecutive two ½ rolls ........K 3

P-13.15 Roll Combination with consecutive ½ roll, roll, ½ rolls in opposite directions ...K 4

P-13.16 ½ Loop on Corner with ¼ roll, ¼ knife-edge loop, ¼ roll .........K 3

P-13.17 Figure Z with consecutive four 1/8 rolls .......K 4

You may be interested to know that if the 2^nd place competitor, Tetsuo Onda, had not turned the wrong way on one manoeuvre, the likelihood is that Onda would have been world champion! While this is not a small mistake (the manoeuvre would have scored zero) it goes to show how close it is at the top of the sport.

Turning the wrong way in any competition (e.g. ¾ roll to the left as opposed to the right leaves you pointing 180 degrees the wrong way) zeros your mark for that manoeuvre so if you are interested in flying in competitions, albeit at Club level, that’s something to consider.

Edited By Peter Jenkins on 25/01/2014 18:05:22

[Peter Jenkins]

Cuban 8,

This is a really lovely manoeuvre – when flown well! Probably easiest to look at the diagram of it first and then I’ll talk you through it. As always, when you first fly a manoeuvre make sure that you are 2 mistakes high!

You fly the Cuban 8 by approaching downwind. Position this manoeuvre with care as you want it to be spaced equally either side of your middle marker – you did pick one before you started didn’t you?

Make sure on your run in that you are tracking along the ground on the correct heading i.e. not coming in or going out. At the appropriate time, begin what would be a loop but perform 5/8 of a loop. You should now be on a 45 deg down track. Don’t forget to manage the throttle in the same way as for the loop – as well as all the other three controls – don’t worry about wind correction until you can get the basics right though.

Once established on the 45 deg down track you need to time your ½ roll so that you are wings vertical as you pass centre (your middle marker). Don’t linger on the roll – a normal speed roll is what is required as the ground is approaching fast! After completing the ½ roll, you need to match the “line” you flew before the ½ roll and then start applying power for the second loop of which you will only need to perform ¾. As you fly the second loop, try and imagine how big you flew your first one and make the second one the same – yes, it’s not easy! When you have established your second 45 deg down line and after your “line” perform a ½ roll aiming to have wings vertical as you pass centre.

After your ½ roll and “line” perform a 1/8 loop to return to level flight. Not start breathing again! Wasn’t so bad and it felt good as well!

A few pointers on wind correction for the cross over 45 deg down lines. The manoeuvre will be being pushed downwind so the correction is the opposite to the loop in which we were travelling upwind. So, you need to pull more up elevator and have the aircraft axis pointing slightly into wind when it is vertical. When you get to the 45 deg down line, if you fly with the aircraft attitude at 45 deg the wind effect will be to make the down line steeper and that will ensure you will miss the centre point. So, you need to fly at a shallower angle so that the CG of the aircraft flys the 45 deg down line.

The second loop is flown exactly like our usual loop so normal corrections there. Now when you come to the 45 degree downline, the effect of the wind will be to make it look shallower. So, to compensate, you’ve guessed it, we need to fly a steeper 45 deg with the aircraft so that the CG flies down the 45 deg down line.

You should handle the cross wind in the same way I described for the loop remembering that the correction will change direction between the 2 part loops.

By performing a half Cuban 8 you have a turnaround manoeuvre that keeps you at the same height

[cymaz]

In every manoeuvre plane set up is everything. Level wings, straight path and a well trimmed plane. I would rather trim a plane mechanically rather than using the Tx. I can take me months to trim a plane out but believe me it is sooo worth it. Don't misunderstand me I am not a super-duper acrobatic expert, just a normal club flier. Though I do like a plane with correct side thrust, lateral balance etc. Makes flying easier as you can concentrate on the flying not fight the plane.

[Peter Jenkins]

Cymaz is absolutely right. If you have just joined this thread, you might want to back track to the beginning where I've covered trimming your aircraft so that you can concentrate on flying the aerobatic shape you want than fighting an out of trim aircraft.

[cymaz]

Sorry, didn't realise.

[andyh]

Posted by cymaz on 25/01/2014 07:21:49:

Andyh,try and see it in the field for yourself. Video doesn't really do precision aerobatics justice, especially the constant speeds achieved up/down wind legs and on climbs and dives.

BTW I thought rudder induced yaw, but I may be corrected.

I'll try to get along to a comp this year - as you say, videos don't really do it justice, although the sim video does actually work better than the real-life stuff

the problem with rudder-induced yaw isn't more yaw