Ever wanted to get into or improve your aerobatics?

["L"Plate]

Just a quick one, in the RC Model World there is a series on trimming for aerobatics part two is in the current issue. It is by Jon Tappin and he is going through trimming a Vanquish but he supports a lot of what has been said here.

I have to say I don't have a mentor to help me out on a regular basis but I do have support from a top chap at a club a few miles away (thanks Peter for setting that up).

I get around the problem to a small degree by having the chaps I am teaching to fly call for me and look at what I am doing, they think it is fair as we all get an equal share of flying.

When I am training I encourage learners to do some basic aerobatics fairly early on to help them get used to seeing the aircraft in different attitudes, I also put the aircraft into different manoeuvres and hand control over to them to rectify, this I think is one of the biggest benefits of using a buddy box, I have even helped pilots after their “A” with buddy boxing for inverted flight training. I am sorry to say that most seem more interested in going on to large scale rather than aerobatics, I think this is to do with the shows as much as anything, as at most shows I have gone to recently have had about 95% of the flying being large (or very large) scale models, or jets; going back to the 70’s and 80’s there was a lot more aerobatics and demonstration flights of normal sports models.

[Peter Jenkins]

Ultymate, thanks for flagging up the IMAC mentoring opportunity. I have to say though that the thought of letting folks fly their B at such a meeting is quite difficult to get my mind around. Firstly, you need your Club's approval that they will recognise the B. Secondly, the B is quite different from flying a schedule and there needs to be a lot more focus on processes in the pits, getting to the take off point and recovery to the pits that are not examined during schedule flying. Thirdly, you will need 2 examiners or an ACE to carry out the test.

If all of these points can be resolved then the opportunity to take a B at such mentoring events may be viable. I cannot see this happening during the GBR/CAA organised NPODs as there just isn't the time to do both the aerobatic mentoring and a B test.

A better idea might be to have a focused B test day - does anyone know of one that has been held and which is still being run? I am aware that the B test days at Old Warden have now reduced to assessment of the readiness of B test candidates. Does anyone know the reasons behind this?

At the end of the day, if you are a competent aerobatic pilot you will still have to practise to achieve the required standard for the B that will meet with an examiner's approval. The best way to do this is to get your examiner to review your progress at regular intervals and coach you in areas in which you need to improve.

Look forward to hearing about the experience of others on this matter.

[Ultymate]

The last time I saw a couple of pilots take "B" tests at the training weekend it caused no issues at all either in practicalities or in time constraints. It's probably a sad comment on how tardy some clubs are in managing to organise BMFA achievement tests for their members. Keep in mind we're not talking large numbers here as most people who are thinking of flying large scale aerobatics do already hold a "B", but we thought it a worthwhile service to offer would be IMAC members. The two guys I actually saw tested had arranged it several weeks before and arrived well prepared, the two tests being done in the lunch breaks on the Saturday and Sunday

[Peter Jenkins]

Just like to take the opportunity to wish all of you who have been following this thread and who have contributed to it a very Happy Christmas and an aerobatic New Year.

I'll be back in the New Year with a description of some of the less easily understood names of aerobatic manoeuvres. In the mean time, please do keep posting if you have any questions or would like to make a point. I'll try and keep an eye on things over the festive period.

[David Hardaker]

Peter

Best wishes to you and yours.

I bet this Christmas involves plenty of "recovery from unusual attitudes" but it won't be anything to do with flying ! ......

[Steve Colman]

Merry Xmas to everyone.

Received a non flying related early xmas pressie today.

My daughter gave birth to a little boy and I'm now a Grandad !!!

Steve.

[Martin McIntosh]

May I be the first to congratulate you!

Martin Mc

[Peter Jenkins]

Congratulations Steve! As one Grandad to another - make sure you keep a very close eye on Grandma's spending from now on!

Peter

[Steve Colman]

Many thanks gentlemen. Mum and son are doing fine albeit a bit on the tired side.

Now, I'm doubly chuffed because after four weeks of waiting my Angel S30e has finally arrived and boy does it look beautiful. Think I'm going to be busy over the new year!

Steve.

[Peter Jenkins]

Good way to start the New Year Steve. Best of luck on both fronts but I can only really provide help with the Angel! What kit are you putting into it?

Peter

["L"Plate]

A comment on another forum got me thinking. Modern F3A type aircraft have a lot of fuselage side area, this helps a lot with the combined rolling and looping manoeuvres found in the top competition schedules, the down side is they are effected more by cross wind component in blustery conditions. All models are a compromise and we as pilots have to learn to cope with the short falls in the design and we can only do this by practicing either the manoeuvres that the airframe is not so good at or in the conditions that cause the most problems. I practice in conditions that a lot of club pilots don’t even consider worth get a model out of the car for, I think I learn a lot trying to keep a loop round and on track in windy weather (I have yet to master it).

[Kevin Caton]

Sorry to contradict you Algy but fuselage side area does not affect aircraft behaviour in a crosswind. The angle required to compensate for a crosswind component is simply a function of the airspeed. Lots of side area does help knife edge and rolls though!

Kevin

[Stephen Grigg]

Hopefully the Hangar 9 Tribute 36 will help improve my aerobatics

["L"Plate]

Hi Kevin,

Don't worry about contradicting me, I am only going by my experiance, my jocker from the 80's seams far less effected by cross wind gusts than my Monolog. In a constant wind I would agree with you completly but in gusty conditions the Monolog needs far more correction to keep it on line, that is my experiance.

My reasoning is that due to the larger side area a greater side force is imparted onto the airframe therefore overcoming more of the momentum and so moving the model further off line, mind you it could also be to do with the airframe weight. I have found in none gusty conditions little difference.

Is this also your findings?

["L"Plate]

Hi Stephen,

The Hangar 9 Tribute 36 looks like a great fun aircraft for 3D and probably even "Fun Fly" style flying. It will not be easy to do precision aerobatics as it is fairly short in the fuselage and has big control surfaces, it is not an F3A style aircraft. That said if you are just starting out, once trimmed it should be capable of "The Book" and build your confidence up. If 3D is what you want to do I would think it is a good starting point.

I can see you having a grin from ear to ear if you set the ailerons as flaperons and have a switch to mix them with elevator, I had a Wild Card (similar idea) and it could loop so tightly it got buffeted by its own wake. I did come 6th in the RAFMA aerobatics comp one year with it after crashing my Smart Move 40.

[Peter Jenkins]

Well Happy New Year to all the viewers of this Thread!

I have previously described how to perform a loop, a square loop and a roll.

Is there interest in learning, what is and how to perform a host of other aerobatic manoeuvres such as

• bunt,
• square loop on side,
• Immelman (half loop and half roll)
• Split S (half roll and half loop),
• Cuban 8,
• reverse Cuban 8,
• stall turn,
• Cobra roll,
• Fighter turn,
• Humpty Bump,
• inverted spin,
• change spin direction,
• knife edge,
• positive snap,
• negative snap,
• avalanche (loop, or bunt, with snap at top)

Any others? Apart, that is from integrated manoeuvres, such as rolling circles etc – more on those later on if you want it.

[Martyn K]

oooooooooooohhhh yes please ( and I probably speak for every lurker on this thread)

Martyn

[Masher]

HNY Peter, yes please I was hoping you would keep up the good work!

[David Hardaker]

Peter

"Any others?" How about the Zwirbelturm ?

Well you did ask !

Happy New Year.

David

["L"Plate]

I know it is not on the F3A list but I have never got a model to Lomcevak possibly due to a lack of prop weight, but if there is a trick to get models to do it let me know.

I do think the list will get most up through the first couple of levels.

[Peter Jenkins]

David H - never heard of it so had to Google Zwirbelturm (it is an architectural term in German) - text autotranslated from German so it's a bit literal!

The Zwirbelturm is an aerobatic maneuver that is not in the Aresti catalog is included. The 1974 from the Swiss aerobatic Eric Müller invented show figure is not shown in competitions and rarely flown by other pilots.

A Zwirbelturm is as follows: First, the plane from the normal horizontal flight is pulled upward in a vertical line. Then follows a controlled role, what a bumped is added. The aircraft will now turn left blank so that it somehow "trundles up" to the forward energy is depleted. At the highest point, the aircraft rotates about a rotation in the horizontal position still practically at a standstill around the vertical axis, before it starts to fall back down. This stationary rotation is the real highlight of the figure, both for the audience and for the pilots.This is followed by several turns close to flat spin before the figure is again diverted to horizontal flight. The figure is perfect when the pitch of the aircraft gradually reduced during the upward motion and the horizontal position is reached exactly at the highest point. This is accomplished by the well-dosed withdrawal of the power lever.

In order to achieve a long upward line, the input speed must be very high. The figure is feasible in a simplified form with gliders, but then waived the first controlled role and directly a bumped initiated because the energy otherwise not sufficient for satisfactory execution. Even so, the energy reaches a maximum of about two turns before the plane falls back down.

The name Zwirbelturm chose Eric Muller, who was an architect by profession, since the figure is reminiscent of a tower with spiral twisted (twirled) roof, which is in the architecture also called Zwirbelturm.

[Peter Jenkins]

Algy

I've never tried a Lomcevak but this is what Wikipedia says:

The Lomcevak maneuver is when the aircraft's tail spins pitching down about its wing while the entire aircraft is continuously stalled.

There are several methods to execute this maneuver. The most common method is as follows:

1. Flying full throttle from right to left, pull up to a 45-degree upline.
2. Roll the wing to the left 90 degrees so the left wing tip points to the ground.
3. Feed full right rudder, full right aileron, and full down elevator.
4. The aircraft should exhibit the Lomcevak while spiraling downwards.
5. Before reaching terra-firma, exit the maneuver by neutralizing rudder, aileron, and pitch input, then roll toward exit heading, and pull out into level flight.

Alternatively, one can enter Lomcevak as follows:

1. Pull up vertically and minimize throttle.
2. Feed left rudder as if to execute a stall turn.
3. As the plane begins to stall, feed full right rudder, full right aileron, full down elevator, and full throttle.
4. The aircraft should exhibit the Lomcevak while spiraling downwards.
5. Exit the maneuver as the above method.

This maneuver calls for a specific type of aircraft. Since the motion involves rapid downward pitch, a low-wing aircraft with high thrustline is desirable, as it naturally creates the downward pitch moment. Also, the aircraft should readily snap on command. Cap 232 is by far the easiest design by which to execute Lomcevak.

["L"Plate]

Interesting Peter,

I recall trying the second version (but without aileron and reducing throttle after rotation started) with a Zlin 50L but it only working one way, I was told by the owner that it was easier one way than the other due to gyroscopic action from the prop, when I tried it with my 1/4 scale it refused to spin about the lateral axis or keep the low wing pointing at the ground, it was more like a flick roll at the top of a stall turn, I tried different aileron and throttle combinations to try to get the knife edge spin but without getting it right.

Anyway on with the proper stuff.

[Martin McIntosh]

The nearest I ever got to this was with a Panic bipe. Don`t ask me how though. It never would fly in a straight line anyway.

An interesting manoeuvre I used to do with a rather small and overpowered Dalotel was a vertically downward flat spin. This was initiated by a vertical climb, throttle back, full right rudder then full left rudder with full power applied. It would do 2 1/2 turns every time but would sometimes go into a spin at the bottom. I now have a larger version of the model with the same motor and prop but cannot repeat this. Could be the prop. weight which I had never considered or a more forward cg.

[Martin McIntosh]

I could do a knife edge spin with a Peter Miller Cap 21 as long as I used a light (Lipo) pack so this must also be very cg dependent.

Neither of these were in any way twitchy in normal flight.