Devcon1 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Steve, Your colleague has just demonstrated why they don't need to get a penny from me and you. Regards John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hargreaves - Moderator Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 My thoughts exactly John.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu knowles Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Which company issued the 'ticket' Some are known to be toothless and never attempt Court. Others are pretty tenacious. However it seems that a winning formula has been found which, so long as properly presented, has worked very well with those that find themselves seated in front of a Judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hargreaves - Moderator Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Has anyone actually found themselves seated in front of a judge? I understood that they were afraid to actually test their case in a court as it would set a legal precident if they lost......the only court cases they have won have been uncontested I believe..... Frankly I'd love them to take me to court & lose so I could claim back my expenses....lets see a day off work to attend, another to prepare my case.....travel costs etc!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area 51 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Don't forget to keep a note of the time spent "researching" this issue, should you ever end up this far down the track.. All expenses and time can be claimed and compensated. Alas, I doubt anything will come of it..! Ignore and press on with some building ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu knowles Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 There have been many people who have received a Court Summons, one company alone has issued literally thousands. Win or Loss at County Court does not set a precedent and expenses are restricted. I agree that these invoices dressed as fines are without merit of any kind, I just wanted to underline that simple 'ignore all'. in some cases. may not be the best course to follow. stu k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Mackey Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 Thanks for the replies again chaps. Stu.....the company is UKPC ( United Kingdom Parking Controls ). SEE HERE I shall return a comment to the store owner saying how poor his response is ( I cant believe that he has no sway over a company operating on his behalf, on his land! ) and then I may send a short, polite, but clear message to UKPC. Good idea on keeping record of all research etc Area 51, will do. Edited By Tim Mackey on 18/02/2014 08:09:56 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John F Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 If you receive a ticket in a private car park, such as a supermarket car park it is not criminal law, but contract law that applies. The driver enters into a contract with the landowner when they drive onto the car park. This means that it is only the driver that can be subject to a ticket from a private company. If they do not know who the driver was, they cannot claim a penalty. They have no legal right to demand that you identify the driver. UKPC are very well known and have been known to operate further down the demand letter chain as Debt Recovery Plus. This office of UKPC also have absolutely no powers and they often write stating thay they will get a CCJ against you if you don't pay. The issue is that you don't just get issued a CCJ, they have to take you to court to get that! Don't ignore the emails or letters but reply to them stating that you want proof that it was you who was driving. Edited By John F on 18/02/2014 08:26:47 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Miller Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Just for the fun of it, it would be interesting to see what would happen if someone stayed until two minutes before the deadline, drove out of the car park and then drove straight back in. I wonder if they would try anything then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Carr Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Posted by Peter Miller on 18/02/2014 08:28:21: Just for the fun of it, it would be interesting to see what would happen if someone stayed until two minutes before the deadline, drove out of the car park and then drove straight back in. I wonder if they would try anything then. Some of the ones I've seen state "no return within x hours" Edited By Craig Carr on 18/02/2014 08:36:50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Tim-you appear to be having no luck-why not have a crack with the citizens advice people? .... ken Anderson ne...1 ....... justice dept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Posted by John F on 18/02/2014 08:26:19: If you receive a ticket in a private car park, such as a supermarket car park it is not criminal law, but contract law that applies. The driver enters into a contract with the landowner when they drive onto the car park. This means that it is only the driver that can be subject to a ticket from a private company. If they do not know who the driver was, they cannot claim a penalty. They have no legal right to demand that you identify the driver. UKPC are very well known and have been known to operate further down the demand letter chain as Debt Recovery Plus. This office of UKPC also have absolutely no powers and they often write stating thay they will get a CCJ against you if you don't pay. The issue is that you don't just get issued a CCJ, they have to take you to court to get that! Don't ignore the emails or letters but reply to them stating that you want proof that it was you who was driving. Edited By John F on 18/02/2014 08:26:47 John - your post sounds as though you have knowledge of the relevant laws and regulations yet the link in Tim's post states the opposite and quotes case law and precedent will apply! I've no reason to doubt the information you've given - and it's how I'd like to believe the situation to be - but assuming it's correct, how is a company allowed to publicly claim that the British Law Courts will support it in pursuing the errant parker? I would have thought this would incur some official displeasure at the very least... Do you speak from any sort of expert capacity? I'm certainly no lawyer but the part of the Protection of Freedom Act referred to certainly seems to exist as claimed. Edited By Martin Harris on 18/02/2014 09:49:46 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Rothwell Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 The problem here is that Tim may have already admitted to being the driver of the vehicle ( by contacting the franchisee to complain) and therefore if it goes to court the evidence to prove he was the driver at the stated time of infringement is already available. Over the last 5 years I have had dealing on two separate occasions with these so called parking companies , and on both occasions it was down to them to prove I was the driver, they failed on both occasions and I never heard from them again, by writing to the owner/manager I fear Tim may well have compromised his position. David Edited By Davwik on 18/02/2014 10:25:49 Edited By Davwik on 18/02/2014 10:27:33 Edited By Davwik on 18/02/2014 10:27:56 Edited By Davwik on 18/02/2014 10:28:55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John F Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 The law changes every day so precedent does apply but that is only when they actually get to the stage where they take you to court. Up to that point a huge amount of these companies prey on the fact that it is easy to bully folk to pay an excessive parking charge. All companies will claim to have the backing of the British Law Courts but that is once they go to court and make a claim against you. In theory I could claim to have support of the British Law courts against you. But it only applies if I have a case and the will to take it to court. The bit you quote only relates to council owned land and recovery of charges where a parking ticket, called a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN), was issued and placed on the vehicle or given to the driver at the time of the offence. In other words a Traffic Warden. Private companies cannot call them PCN's but they often do. My brother-in-law used to be a Traffic Warden before he got fed up of being verbally abused. He went into vehicle recovery instead!! Edited By John F on 18/02/2014 10:30:21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Mackey Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 Im getting information overload now. Have read countless threads on as many different websites and forums, and there are many many different opinions as the correct action. Laws also vary from different regions within the UK, and having trawled thro' lots of threads, in different forums, its all getting tiring. **LINK** Im collecting lots of info, template letters, case histories and weblinks etc, but tbh, right now Im exhausted with it all - and in the last few minutes, have received a text informing me that my fifth grandchild, Isobel, has just been born at Redditch hospital, so Im signing off for a bit. I must have spent at least two days reading up and trying to get clarification on this hassle. No wonder so many people just pay up, life's too short to have all this aggro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olly P Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Congrats Tim! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris basson Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Yeah! What Olly Said!Redditch you say? You'll be passing the Long Mynd then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Jones Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Take a transmitter with you when go to see Isobel and make it pronto so that she start binding bonding to it ASAP. Gotta start right, right? Congratulations Tim. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ashby - Moderator Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Congratulations from me too Tim, helps put it all into perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Do check the parking regulations at the hospital carefully Timbo! ...and congratulations. Edited By Martin Harris on 18/02/2014 15:37:04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John F Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Congratulations Tim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Simmons Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Congratulations Tim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hargreaves - Moderator Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Posted by John F on 18/02/2014 08:26:19: If you receive a ticket in a private car park, such as a supermarket car park it is not criminal law, but contract law that applies. The driver enters into a contract with the landowner when they drive onto the car park. This means that it is only the driver that can be subject to a ticket from a private company. If they do not know who the driver was, they cannot claim a penalty. They have no legal right to demand that you identify the driver. UKPC are very well known and have been known to operate further down the demand letter chain as Debt Recovery Plus. This office of UKPC also have absolutely no powers and they often write stating thay they will get a CCJ against you if you don't pay. The issue is that you don't just get issued a CCJ, they have to take you to court to get that! Don't ignore the emails or letters but reply to them stating that you want proof that it was you who was driving. Edited By John F on 18/02/2014 08:26:47 I thought that the law had recently changed to effectively make the keeper of the car liable for all such fines unless he could prove someone else was driving. Remember that motorists are generally guilty until proven guilty..... If indeed it ever does get to court & you receive papers actually from the courts then definitely best NOT to ignore these or you will be found guilty in abscentia..... Congrats on the new arrival too Tim....much nicer than PCNs etc!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prop Nut Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 There doesn't appear necessarily to be a liability on the keeper for private parking tickets (they're not fines), but it depends on how the Notice to Keeper is worded, and not all parking companies issue a NTK anyway. Unfortunately, like most law it is a little woolly. Some of the best guidance on this subject is available on the Money Saving Expert website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Mackey Posted February 19, 2014 Author Share Posted February 19, 2014 Thank you for your good wishes chaps - little Isobel is gorgeous, just like her grandfather LOL. I show below the response from Mcdonalds franchisee owner referred to earlier. Dear Mr Mackey, I'm sorry to hear you have received a parking charge after visiting our Holywell branch. As Ben has explained UKPC operate the parking restriction scheme under a contract signed with McDonald's Restaurants limited prior to selling the franchise to me. Neither McDonalds or I receive any income, bear any cost or have anything to do with installing the cameras and managing this scheme Regrettably UKPC are unwilling to withdraw this parking charge which has been levied under contract within the advertised parking rules. If you feel you may need to stay longer than 1.5 hours in the future then you would be more than welcome to visit my Northop restaurant, or any of my other McDonalds' restaurants in the area which do not have these parking restrictions. I know this is not what you wanted to hear so please accept my apologies. I have responded with the following.......... Thank you for your reply - and as you say, it is not what I was wanting / expecting to hear. As I previously stated, I have no intention of responding to this unfair invoice, on the grounds of...... 1) I was a legitimate paying customer in your restaurant for the entire time. 2) Even if I accepted the legitimacy of the invoice, ( which I certainly do not ) £100 for a parking period of less than half an hour is outrageous and completely unjustifiable - especially as the car park is free. I am certain that any court in the land would agree on that. My considerable research into this matter so far indicates that if UKPC were brazen enough to attempt court action against me, they would require the landowner ( you ) to formally instruct them to do so, therefore it is equally obvious ( were it it not so already ) that you do indeed have the authority to instruct the cancellation of this invoice, and I urge you again to do so in order to close this matter and retain both my custom, and loyalty to your business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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