Pulse Jet Airframe

[Erfolg]

It is reassuring to read that modellers in the UK are very much aware of the challenges and responsibilities that face us.

Although for many years many of us modellers were in denial with respect to noise. I reluctantly strapped on my silencer to my Enya 19, thinking I had done my bit and it was enough. With further acts of Parliament, limiting noise that can be considered a nuisance as well as the all encompassing "Health and Safety at Works Acts" which reaches far beyond the work place, has further sharpened our awareness as noise a s a nuisance and potentially a criminal act.

I personally would be devastated if we were to loose any of our present locations where we can fly our models, or had further restrictions imposed, due to any actions where a unsuitable model had been operated, be it noise, potential to do serious damage, without measures to control the risks and threats to an acceptable level.

[Alan Gorham_]

I'm sure that the flying of pulse jet powered R/C models is not valid under BMFA insurance, except under very strict conditional exemption.

I dimly remember it involves written permission of the landowner, CAA exemption, ongoing monitoring of the site and environs for noise issues is carried out and that it requires the operator to hold a BMFA B certificate.

Is it a co-incidence that most of the videos showing pulse jet models flying were not taken in the UK? No, I don't think it is.

I know about the use of the MOD property at Machrihanish as a flying site but I think this is just for one or two days per year, so given it's remote location and presumably since MOD permission is needed to access the site, then permission is easily sought to operate pulse jets there and likely nuisance value is thus limited?

I'm sure I saw one of the Dutch teams pulse jets flying at an event at Elvington in the early 1990, too? One 5 minute flight during the day.....

I love model flying, but even I would have extreme sympathy with the poor people living near a regular flying site for pulse jets. We live in a small country with not a great deal of true isolation. If you set one of these things off in your typical rural area, you would soon find out how close people lived as they would all be after your blood!

[stevejet66]

ive just brought a hobbyking pulsejet 3lb thrust and im sure i will fly mine at some point, Just to add to some off the comments yes they are very fast but for the hobbyking pulsejet it wouldnt pull the skin of a rice pudding, It would be perfect on an irvine 40 trainer airframe, My sc 32 engine only produces 2.5lb of thrust i use for my jumper 25 and thats not that quick.

Edited By stevejet66 on 02/04/2014 19:22:32

[Alan Gorham_]

Wow...A 40 sized trainer powered by a pulsejet?!

Errr why....?

[stevejet66]

Well alan its a good idea to see how things work rather than have a missile on your hands and all goes wrong, Maybe then move on to a different airframe, learn in small steps i say

If you want more speed and thrust run them on methanol as they do in the states.

[Wiltshire Flyer]

Hi john m.

The reasoning behind my "sweeping statement" is obvious.

They are dangerous and easily available to those that lets say ..... Well all the gear no idea.

A traditional glow engine crashes its usually just collecting up plane bits etc, but with turbines pulse jets and the like there is great risk of fire.
Lose a glow plane in a farmers field, at worst you lose your plane.
Crash a jet into then at best you lose your model because the farmer may well lose the field.

The dangers are obvious.
That's my final word on the matter or I'll end up banned ;0)

[Alan Gorham_]

Err, bearing in mind that it's required to have a BMFA B certificate (amongst other things) to operate a pulse jet and maintain insurance cover, then I'd have thought the basic operation of more advanced aircraft to have been done and dusted before someone bolts a cheap, mass-produced fire and noise breathing monster into their trainer!

It just seems totally self-defeating to me. There are so many hoops to jump through before you can fly a pulse jet under R/C and there's no guarantee that after having jumped through them that you won't severely annoy your flying sites neighbours and lose the site anyway.

Why would you then want to bore yourself by flying the world's noisiest trainer?

[Erfolg]

I am not sure that it is enshrined in law to have a "B" cert to fly a pulse jet. It may be a condition of the BMFA insurance policy. Again i am not aware it is a legal requirement to have insurance to fly a model or pulse jet model.

I am reasonably confident however that you could find that you break UK laws and probably by laws, with respect to noise if operated within much of the areas of the UK where there are typical population densities.

I must say I do agree with Alan G with the sentiment of his posting.

I also agree with Wiltshire Flyer, the danger of fire if landing out is all to real, crashing could be even worse, a red hot, open tailpipe, with a potentially ruptured fuel tank, needs care in the selection of a suitable site. In the case of model jets, at least the motor is enclosed, and to date, we are fortunate that operators of these models are aware of their responsibilities and operate accordingly.

Edited By Erfolg on 02/04/2014 20:10:30

[Lee Smalley]

firstly John, it does "sort of" go for every model, as per the BMFA handbook and the CAA the person must reasonably be confident the flight can be made safely, if you do not, and have an incident, and if it can be proven that the damage you have caused has been done so recklessly, then the insurance will be void and you will almost certainly be prosecuted by the CAA, so it was your "go for it" attitude that i took to be flippant and reckless in this of all models, and you stated this without the slightest idea of the original posters experience, regardless if he did it somewhere remote or not, i still find that the issue should not be taken lightly, and that is why there was a cautious even unfavourable response from the forum, and rightly so, i am not against flying pulse jet powered models, if it is done by the right people in a safe manner and the noise (which i dont think you are aware of) is horrible in real life; is not an issue.

As for the other points of view i find it a bit silly to slate any jet powered model, when sadly various deaths have been caused by what we would class normal models, as with all things in life there are risks, if we did not want any risks we would never do anything! but there is a real difference to an experienced operator safely flying a jet powered model and a complete newbie running up and flying a pulse jet model, which without the OP actually saying anything is what we have to assume, the one thing you certainly should not be saying to him is "yes go for it"

i fly turbine powered models, i trained hard for 4 years to do so, and i had the advice of an experienced and world class flyer whilst i was doing so.

i achieved my A cert, then B cert and then BMFA qualified instructor, i am currently going for my Jet C cert,

i see far more dangerous flying every week at the patch than what i do with my jet

[Lee Smalley]

Posted by Wiltshire Flyer on 02/04/2014 19:37:18:
Hi john m.

The reasoning behind my "sweeping statement" is obvious.

They are dangerous and easily available to those that lets say ..... Well all the gear no idea.

A traditional glow engine crashes its usually just collecting up plane bits etc, but with turbines pulse jets and the like there is great risk of fire.
Lose a glow plane in a farmers field, at worst you lose your plane.
Crash a jet into then at best you lose your model because the farmer may well lose the field.

The dangers are obvious.
That's my final word on the matter or I'll end up banned ;0)

actually flyer i think from memory it was not so long ago that the model flying at duxford was very much under risk after a farmer lost almost his entire crop after a free flight model went astray and landed/crashed into his patch..... i am pretty sure it was not turbine powered

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I'd love to be proved wrong - but I strongly suspect that there is no where in England sufficiently isolated to fly a Pulse Jet without causing a noise nuisance. They are flown at the Nats - (albeit on a control line) but that's a couple of flights a day on an RAF station once a year. And as I understand it its one guy, he's fully fenced in and he really knows what he's doing. And even then you can hear it miles from the airfield!

BEB

[Lee Smalley]

yeah and it hilarious watching him go around and around at that speed......must be mad!!

[john melia 1]

The comment was no form of jet propulsion should be allowed in our hobby (wiltshire flyer) , that to me is a ridiculous statement , might as well say no aircraft bigger than 1/4 scale should be allowed either then . As I said earlier if you have access to a suitable site then why not fly jet propelled aircraft .

Anyway thats it from me , no more comments , I will eventually get a turbine powered model , and I Will fly it , in an area where no harm will arise from any unforseen circumstances . Sorry if that upsets you , but until they are banned I will endevour to obtain one and fly it . Simples .

Over and out

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

John fly what you want

in the right place done safely and within any rules, that's all that's required

pulse jets i'll leave to authority's, same as illegal FPV.

myself I don't care what you fly, just enjoy it, do it safely.

I also think there is a fair amount of money being spent by us modellers, I don't believe we shall all be hung from the nearest tree should some idiot have an incident. I think we would be able to present a good case for ourselves.

John..(optimist)

[iqon]

I would love to see one at the nats one day, but thats as far as it would take my interest I can see why club officials would put them down But the younger flyers want to try these things for themselves and are not necessarily in a club and know of any safety issues

[Lee Smalley]

nice one moonpie, very sensible, no one scared the op off people just asked sensible questions, especially given the advanced aspect of what he was interested in flying, the original op has not been forthcoming so we have to assume he is a little inexperienced, maybe we are wrong, but it would remiss of us to encourage a potential novice to do such a thing, would you encourage a guy who has just had a few goes of his dad car to get in a formula 1 car and drive it up and down your street while your kids played out!! no of course not you would ask some sensible questions to placate yourself about his ability to do so safely,

john totally agree, one view that all jet propelled aircraft "have no place" is to my mind narrow minded and probably stems from lack of experience of such things, there are restrictions on pulse jet models in this country and due to their complexity possible speed and sheer noise, (more sheer noise than anything else) i think thats wise, and whilst we would like to think that if something horrendous did happen it would not have an adverse effect on the hobby as a whole, well i think that is quite naive in this day and age, i for one would not like to take the risk, did a country recently ban model flying after an incident or was that just rumors????

[This post has been slightly edited - not due to any fault of the poster. It challenged by quote an inappropriate remark in previous post by another individual. That post has been removed because of that remark and so the quote has removed from this post -BEB]

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 03/04/2014 23:57:47

[john melia 1]

I see that you actually fly jet propelled aircraft lee , so obviously you couldnt agree with the "all jet propelled aircraft have no place in our hobby ".

[ken anderson.]

well said from me Lee......its ok talking about pulse jets....but once you've seen and heard a one fly----- it becomes clear why they can cause someone to have model aircraft flying banned in a 5 mile radius where they operate one...... as well as the danger's..........

ken Anderson...... ne..1 ....PJ dept.

[Bill_B]

Posted by ken anderson. on 03/04/2014 09:37:22:

.... as well as the danger's..........

No more dangerous than a gas turbine IMHO.

Personally, I don't even object to the noise of pulse jets as the flights are usually of a short duration, but it's unfortunately frowned upon by the plethora of kill-joys that prevail in today's society. How about the roaming ice cream vans who's jingles are emitted at ear splitting levels for far too long, house alarms that go off for a minimum of 20 mins. which keep shift workers and babies awake, and clay pigeon shoots that seemingly blast away all weekend. Now there's some genuine noise pollution that requires attention.

[David Tweddle]

See my posting not just us .

David

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

This thread has wandered a bit so if i'm allowed i'll put my point of view.

I believe something quite horrendous has already happened involving a model plane. or was that just a rumour?????.

You good folks always give good advice and make people aware of the safety issues, I can't fault you.

You lose me every time when the doomsday scenario comes in. I don't bury my lipo's in the garden nor do I lay awake nights wondering if tomorrow some idiot will end flying for us all.

Will Kens club be closed down if someone flys a pulse jet within 5 miles of his club? he seems a sensible fella to me, why would they punish him for someone elses wrong doing?

In this day and age a member of my club was involved in a serious incident with a full size helicopter, the CAA were involved, the club liased with them regarding the matter.

My clubs still here, no punishment, no restrictions. Based on experience I don't walk around with my chin on my chest

The club up the road had a noise abatement order against them, were they closed? NO

A compromise was reached with the locals, restricted times for I.C. fly electric till the cows come home

So no I don't share some peoples negative outlook, if that makes me naïve I can live with it

 

Edited By john stones 1 on 03/04/2014 18:58:23

[Lee Smalley]

Posted by john stones 1 on 03/04/2014 18:50:50:

This thread has wandered a bit so if i'm allowed i'll put my point of view.

I believe something quite horrendous has already happened involving a model plane. or was that just a rumour?????.

You good folks always give good advice and make people aware of the safety issues, I can't fault you.

You lose me every time when the doomsday scenario comes in. I don't bury my lipo's in the garden nor do I lay awake nights wondering if tomorrow some idiot will end flying for us all.

Will Kens club be closed down if someone flys a pulse jet within 5 miles of his club? he seems a sensible fella to me, why would they punish him for someone elses wrong doing?

In this day and age a member of my club was involved in a serious incident with a full size helicopter, the CAA were involved, the club liased with them regarding the matter.

My clubs still here, no punishment, no restrictions. Based on experience I don't walk around with my chin on my chest

The club up the road had a noise abatement order against them, were they closed? NO

A compromise was reached with the locals, restricted times for I.C. fly electric till the cows come home

So no I don't share some peoples negative outlook, if that makes me naïve I can live with it

Edited By john stones 1 on 03/04/2014 18:58:23

no one walks around with our chin on our chests, the incident involving your club must of been a no fault of your club, as if there had been there would have been a punishment, no one is doom mongering here just wise caution, and in this case it was because the original OP was not forthcoming with any info with his experience and yet some were encouraging him to go for it, not exactly wise when you have no idea if this guy can even fly solo,

you suggest that no action will happen if you make a bit too much noise and yet you make every ones point for them by stating a club up the road from you had severe restrictions placed upon them for too much noise!!!!

flying only electric for you might not be an issue but there are loads of us out here that it would be a big blow, and thats why we have to be a little bit less than blase about the issue, lets not all start quaking in our boots here, lets just have a sensible attitude, i personally feel that flying or trying to fly a pulse jet model in an area that is not specifically designated for such a thing is a bit of a risk, even more so if it is done so by someone less than experienced

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

No Lee

I said in the right place, done safely and within the rules. If you can do this I don't care what you fly.

Heli incident was very worrying the CAA listened to our side and took no action. That is my point. They listened to what we had to say, even though it differed from the heli pilots version.

The club up the road...the restrictions are in evenings and weekends. I work, so as a then member it meant I could no longer fly there. Reason is 4 petrols rest big 4 strokes, so its a big deal to me, I.C. only at the time.

Restrictions where justified, brought about by some flying petrol powered models in the wrong place, unsafely and outside of the rules.

I suggest Kens club wont be held responsible for someone making too much noise. cant find your version in my post

[Wiltshire Flyer]

Original poster has not responded.....would
I be alone in thinking that this thread was possibly started in order to encourage vexation pon us peeps?
Cat amoungst the pigeons? ;0)

[john melia 1]

Posted by Wiltshire Flyer on 04/04/2014 01:29:16:
Original poster has not responded.....would
I be alone in thinking that this thread was possibly started in order to encourage vexation pon us peeps?
Cat amoungst the pigeons? ;0)

Yep I think its looking that way , strange person if thats what he gets his kicks from